Interview with Chris Brogan

“Chris had a blog post this morning about 100 Twitters, and that started an online conversation that turned into this 1/2 hour podcast.”

Dave Winer and Chris Brogan discuss the future of Twitter and the desire for more choice and control in the social media landscape. Winer expresses frustration with Twitter’s increasing centralization and celebrity focus, arguing that the platform should embrace more decentralization and customization to allow users to create their own “clubhouses” and experiences. Brogan agrees, noting the need for alternatives that provide the simplicity and familiarity of Twitter but with more flexibility and user control.

(phone ringing)

• I’m calling Chris Brogan now and…
• Well, hello.
• Hey, is this Chris?
• It is.
• Hey, Chris, it’s Dave Winer here.
  I thought we’d have a little chat about hundreds or thousands of Twitters.
  How does that sound?
• I love it.
• Do you? - I love it.
• I noticed that you wrote a blog post about that today.
  So you tell us a little bit about what you’re thinking is about this.
• Well, I’m very inspired and not too far off from, I think, where you and Steve were going in similar and different directions.
  And I agree very much that it’s sort of the, we’ve come to accept that there ’s sort of this requirement of facility that we can do something where we move sort of micro packages of information around.
  And I guess with me, it’s sort of with the onset of all the celebrities showing up on Twitter that I’ve started to feel a little itchy and thinking, you know, I’d rather get this back to being useful instead of having a whole bunch of people tell me what, you know, Beyonce’s doing.
• Yeah.
  Well, I’m not interested in what Beyonce is doing.
  I feel, you know, the same way.
  The question is where do you go from there? And it gets confusing pretty quickly because let’s say you, okay, so let’s say there are five Tw itters or 50 Twitters or however many there are, okay .
  The question is what’s the relationship between the different Twitters? How do they connect? And you sort of drove right into that in your blog post.
  And, you know, it’s not at all clear to me that you want these things to peer.
  I’ll tell you why, because let ’s say, you know, let’s say they are perfectly pe ering, right? And so that means that, what? That basically there’s no difference between using one Twitter or using them all.
  So in other words, you never get the sort of seclusion that you’re looking for, you know, the impulse for this, and I’ve heard it not just from you, but I’ve heard it from a lot of other people and I feel it myself is that, you know, and it’s the old thing about the internet.
  It’s what they always say.
  And so now we’re experiencing it is, God, it was so much nicer before all the newbies showed up, right, and, you know, and it’s, that’s sort of the revolving door of the net.
  We keep doing this over and over and over again, and there’s nothing wrong with it, of course.
  Fresh starts are great.
  And so, you know, the feeling is that, yeah, fresh start would be nice , but it wouldn’t be much of a fresh start if everything’s peering, because you would immediately get back to the congestion that you’re feeling in order.
  So there’s always this trade- off.
  It’s sort of, we had it in the blogging world in, let’s say, 1999 was when we first began to feel it, was you sort of had slash dot.
  Slash dot was a huge phenomenon , right? The thing about slash dot was, is there were all these jerks that were doing like first post , right? And they were all being really abusive.
  And, you know, and so that was, the problem there was how to get rid of all the noise, right ? And in the blogging world, we had the opposite problem.
  Was, okay, how do you find anything, you know? And you have to really go hunt and peck and look at all the different sites that are out there.
  So, guess what? We invented all these tools to make everything sort of come together at a variety of different single places.
  The first iteration on that was weblogs. com.
  And then after that, there was Technoradi, and Techmeme came along, and God knows how many other things that, I mean, I don’t even know all the different blogging communities.
  So then you get everything together, and guess what? Now you’ve got the same problem they had on slash dot.
  So it’s like we’re just, you know, sort of like recombining things many different ways.
  I think the impulse here is to say there’s not, there are advantages to not being able to find the new stuff, basically.
  Because what you do is you get a chance to do the kind of thing that you did on your blog today, which is express an idea that doesn’t easily get expressed in 140 characters.
• Well, Red, I mean, I’m not of the school that says one should replace.
  I mean, I love blogging.
  I’m gonna keep going on it.
  I really enjoy the idea that I can, you know, bring conversations beyond this little stream that goes rolling past.
  But what I mean, what Twitter adds to everything is just amazing.
  I mean, what, if you’re not, if you’re Google, and you’re not looking, I mean, sorry, if you’re Google, and you’re not looking over at that going, man, you know, we gotta look at that more.
  I mean, Dig did, Dig caught on finally.
  Oh crap, if we get in the URL shortening game, that means we’ll get a lot more stuff coming right to our URL.
  I mean, that’s what that short ener does.
  If you think about it, it brings a lot more links to dig. com really fast.
• Yeah, oh, I know.
  I was involved with Bitly for a number of months, and that was the thinking there was that this is a chance to get into competition with Dig.
  Because, yeah, you’re getting all these links coming through, yeah.
  I hope Google does come into this space, and I don’t think that they’ll be disappointed.
  I mean, there was this whole discussion yesterday on the Gilmore gang that I was listening to, and I kept wanting to jump into it.
  You know, of course I can’t, because, you know, there’s this, like, barrier.
  But, and, you know, the assumption is that, you know, Twitter’s got it all wrapped up, because everybody has to be where everybody else is.
  But, I think that what you’re seeing is, I think the day that Google opens up one.
  Well, first of all, I think one of the ways we may get our hundreds of Tw itters, ironically, is that Twitter may well support the concept of rooms, which has been in friend feed for quite some time.
  I’m pretty sure they’re thinking that way at Twitter.
  And, so let’s say you have rooms, and let’s say there are controls, access controls to those rooms.
  So I could have the room that says, okay, this is just, you know, the cool Chris Brogan, Dave We iner crowd, right? And just like, these are only people that Chris and Dave want to let into this room.
  So we have our little clubhouse , and maybe nobody else even knows about it, you know? So maybe you get it simply by doing it with Twitter.
  On the other hand, it’s really unwise to put all of our eggs in that one basket.
  I mean, it really is not a good idea.
  So
• And that is the other thing while you’re saying that, as I was thinking, you know, early on YouTube, the way YouTube kind of won super fast, super early was with embeds.
  They said, take into what you want with it over here.
  You know, the sort of hundreds of Twitter ideas is embeds.
  But here’s a question, and I think you wrote about it, or maybe Steve wrote about it, I forget which.
  Why isn’t LeConica this? Why did we all say, nah, with LeConica?
• LeConica, yeah, that’s a good question.
  And Evan asked me that question in a comment in my blog post yesterday when I wrote about this.
  And I haven’t answered it, because I have answered it.
  I mean, that’s the funny thing, ‘cause a couple of days before that, I wrote a thing where I said, this is why LeConica’s not it.
  And what he responded to was with a long sort of feature list of all the things they’re doing with LeConica, but it’s still not what I want.
  What I want is, and this is an intuitive thing, is what I want is, I want something that’s an exact clone of Twitter, okay? In other words, I don’t want to have an argument about, is this a good feature, or is this not a good feature? I want it to be exactly what Twitter is, okay? And then I want to be able to change anything I want to about it, right? So, that is not LeConica.
  LeConica does not give you the ability, and when I say exact, I mean exact down to the thing, to the point where I don’t have to pay a dime to get into Twitter, and I do have to pay a dime to get into hosting a LeConica.
  I can’t get there for free.
  And so Evan says, well, it costs money to host a LeConica, and I say, yeah, I know that’s what I’m saying.
  I mean, it’s like, you know, I mean it’s like, you chase around these things, and you end up at truths, and they end up being inex orable.
  You can’t get rid of that one.
  You know, the only way to get rid of that would be to do what wordpress.
  com has done, you know, or what blogger. com has done.
  And I’m afraid Evan has to do that, or somebody is gonna have to do that for LeConica to be that.
  That’s number one.
  Number two is, they have to give us complete control over the look and feel, you know.
  I mean, this is something, you know, there’s, designers haven’t had a chance to play here yet.
  And there’s this whole community, blogging, like Drew, it’s life blood from the design community for a couple of years, you know , with people trying out all these different crazy ideas for how these things should look and behave.
• Yeah, and they’re still trying out new ideas.
  Well, you can’t do that in Twitter.
  So whatever comes along has to be Twitter to begin with, and then it has to be completely, you know, usurpable .
• Right.
  That’s interesting.
  I mean, it’s funny because with the APIs, I mean, there’s all this third party right over stuff that you can do, but you still really have to keep playing with the mother ship.
  It’s not, you know, it’s not like RSS or whatever.
  It’s not something that you can really disavow the site, you know, or abstract the site, I guess, is the way I’m thinking.
• We have to get there though, Chris.
  I mean, somehow we have to get free of twitter. com.
  It has to happen.
• Right.
• And I would say that when we look back on this in hindsight, five years from now, if, you know, knock wood, we get to be there, right? That we’ll say that if twitter had embraced that concept, twitter would be the god of this space.
  In other words, you have to go out and then look back from the future to today.
  And I think you’ll, we’ll look at it that way and say, had twitter decided to let us have our freedom and use their system, they would have won.
  In other words, I don’t think they’re going to win with the strategy that they have.
  I really don’t.
  Because I think that hidden in that statement about Beyonce is a very, very important truth about what twitter is doing.
  Twitter is becoming a TV network.
  It’s adopting that model of, you know, there are the stars up there and here we are, the little guys down here, okay ? And that is very anti-blogging, very anti-internet.
  It’s not the way this world actually works, you know? And so that creates an operating room for somebody to come in and be that.
• Interesting, interesting.
  Now, in a way, I mean, it’s kind of funny.
  Like, so the technology top 100 is out however many years ago, everyone, you know, rails about it way back when and then everybody wants to be on it and then there’s this whole, who’s on the A-list, you’re not the A-list, the new A-list, et cetera.
  That wave came and went in twitter.
  I mean, I think you’ve been on about as long as, around as long as we am.
  I was like user 10,000 or so.
  So like two and a half years of twitter.
  We’ve gone through that.
  We’ve gone through that.
  Who’s the A-list and then who gives a rat’s ass? And partly because all these people came up with these robotic ways.
  So then now all these people have like 300,000 friends.
• Yeah, wow, yeah, it’s something, isn’t it?
• People we don’t know.
  It’s just kind of, you know, and again, it’s not a number thing until you talk to somebody like Guy Kawasaki, who says
• Oh, come on, Chris, it is definitely a number thing.
• Right.
• Let’s not be like bigger than we really are.
  We’re actually pretty, god damn petty.
  (laughing)
• All right, you’re right about that.
• I mean, it’s not, you know, you’re a great guy, Chris.
  And I like to think in my better moments I am too.
  But they put those numbers front and center in the user interface of the product.
  So it is absolutely central to the ranking system, to the way people think about the importance or power or influence of different people.
  You know, that number, if it were hidden, would not be such a big deal.
  But it is right up there, you know? Like for example, in Friend Feed, that number is not very easy to find.
  In fact, I don’t know how many people follow me in Friend Feed, ‘cause I never know where it is.
  They keep moving it around, and I don’t look.
  So I don’t know.
  I could have a lot, I could have very few.
  It doesn’t enter into my thinking at all.
  Whereas Twitter, it’s all, not all that I’m thinking about, but it’s very central.
  It’s very important.
• Sure.
  Yeah, I just looked at Twitter Hollick for the first time in a long time.
  So I’m evidently down in 166, I have 30 months of Twitter use .
  And then if I look at Solange Knowles, who I don’t know who that is, maybe they’re someone famous or something.
  They’re at 160 with three months of Twitter use.
  You know what I mean? So I don’t have to go all that, or two months from somebody named Demetria Lovato.
  So…
• Now that can’t be a celebrity , right? There’s no celebrity named Dem etria Lovato.
• Lovato.
  They’ve got a MySpace page listed as their main page.
  And they’re two below David P ogue.
  Do you know what I mean? So, I mean, the number is out the door.
  I mean, so clearly there’s some kind of mechanism that you and I haven’t avowed over whatever to get our numbers up there, but.
  But I mean, to the technical side of that, I mean, what Guy Kawasaki points out is, it sure as hell matters because with retweets and all that, and with the link juice that that provides, I mean, this is putting a dent.
  That’s another reason why Google is looking over at this, ‘cause they’re like, “Holy crap , this is how data is getting passed now. "
• Yeah.
  Yeah, and Google, we all complain about Google, but they never did anything like that suggested users list.
  Now, they treated their space with a lot more respect than the Twitter management has treated their space.
  Google would never, I mean, the equivalent of doing that would be in Google space, would be for Google to give extra page rank to somebody because they wrote nice things about them in their blog, like TechCrunch, for example, or Mashable, or whatever.
  Do you think those guys are ever going to write a piece critical of Twitter? And don’t you know, given that if Twitter ever got angry with them, all they would have to do is just take them off the list.
  I mean, it screws the whole thing up.
  It changes, you know, even if they would never in a million years do it, the fact that it introduces that doubt, you know, it was a very bad thing that they did there, Chris.
  And, you know, it’s a, yeah.
• Well, it opens a can of worms .
  I mean, we saw the whole, you know, kind of shouting mash between a few folks about, you know, did somebody or didn’t somebody bribe, and all that.
  I mean, that whole little web went through.
  And I mean, again, it’s, the whole popularity contesting points me back to why I’d love to have, you know, a really tiny, I don’t know, IBM one.
  Why not, why not have one?
• Well, there you go.
  I think that we’re, I think we ’re really, it feels in a way like we went off in a tangent, but I don’t think we did because I want a choice.
  I want, I want there to be another place to go where, you know, I can be a big fish.
  Are you there?
• Yeah.
• Yeah, okay.
  You got quiet there.
  You know, I want to be a big fish in a littler pond, maybe.
  You know, I don’t like this particular sea that I’m swimming in.
  And I feel like if there were four or five or 20 of these things that we probably would get treated better.
  We’d feel better about it.
• Well, sure.
  And I mean, I guess there’s an opportunity.
  I mean, one thing is, so Facebook is in this spot right now.
  Facebook is using, you know, Facebook connect to do things like the inauguration, which on one hand is really cool.
  On the other hand is, you know, my marketing blood gets a little excited about it negatively because I say, you kept all the data.
  You know, Zuckerberg doesn’t share any of that data.
  I don’t know who came or went to my room.
  You know, if I’m a big brand trying to build an experience, but let’s take that sideways for a minute.
  If Twitter is the commons, what Twitter doesn’t do well until it gets a thing like rooms is it doesn’t allow us to go branch off and have small meaningful things yet.
  And I guess it’s just, I understand that the early thinking was, well, that’s because that ’s not supported in SMS.
  But really, how many people are really using the SMS only interface at this point?
• I don’t know. - Do we have to keep?
• No, I mean, I don’t know how many people are.
  I think that’s a fig leaf, Chris.
• I don’t disagree.
  I agree with you.
  I think it used to be, maybe said that they were talking about, but I mean, that’s one of the things I say that made Jaikou not work so well out of the gate was because, you know, being a US centric person, there were US text number for it, but maybe I’m not right.
• No, I think you are.
  And I think that that goes back to, you know, what we need to stand alongside Twitter is something that is exactly Twitter.
  That was the problem with Jaik ou and pounds, they weren’t.
  And, you know, there was a lot of charm.
  Michael Perrec, I think is how you, I don’t know if that’s how you pronounce his name, it’s P-A-R-E-K-H wrote a really brilliant piece a few days ago, where he said the reason why Twitter is so valuable is that there was only so much attention to go around in the blogosphere .
  So people would write these really long blog posts and nobody would read them and they would get very frustrated.
  And, you know, we heard that, right? I mean, you must have heard that from people.
  It’s like, you made us this promise.
  That’s the way it was presented to me.
  It was like, okay, you made us this promise that if we blogged, people would listen to us.
  Well, how come nobody’s listening to us? So he said, well, you know, if people actually can express themselves in 140 characters, there’s that much more attention available to them.
  Because it doesn’t take, you know, how long does it take to read a whole long blog post versus how long does it take to read 140 characters? So it’s had a really positive effect until we reach our limit, which is probably about where a lot of us are right now .
  You know, ‘cause things are just scrolling by so fast.
  It’s like, what worked, what was charming, what was wonderful.
  I think maybe this is where we can agree and just say that maybe this is all we can say right now is that where Twitter used to have this charm to it, it doesn’t seem to have that anymore.
• I agree.
  I think that, I mean, maybe that’s a sign of success in, you know, the hope for more maturity.
  I mean, we’ve gotten over the, except for the other day, we’ve gotten over most of the fail-wail scenarios.
  We’re into the situation where all the celebrities who’ve shown up, I guess that’s what it must have felt like three or four years ago to be a friend, sorry, Facebook user, when they opened up the gates to the barbarians over there, you know, a friend who’s
• But this is good for them, but it has nothing positive for us.
  In other words, congratulations , Twitter.
  You know, you’re gonna be worth billions and billions of dollars, but what does exactly, does that mean to Chris and Dave, you know?
• Right, right.
  Well, it’s a good question because, I mean, I think you’re totally right.
  I mean, the other day, when there was that sort of talk about them turning down a billion, I thought, well, hell, why not? Chad Hurley made 1. 65.
  What’s to say that this isn’t the next that?
• It’s ridiculous.
  You know, a human being can, it can spend, you know, whatever, can’t spend a billion dollars, that’s for sure.
• Well, no, but they gotta pay back those like three or four rounds, right?
• So that’s, I’m glad I don’t have that problem, right? It’s like, you know, in this world, it’s funny because people are losing their houses and their jobs and everything like that.
  It’s like, it’s the last thing I wanna worry about is whether or not Ev and Biz, you know, make a billion or two billion, isn’t really something that I care about too much.
• No.
• No.
  We’re gonna figure this one out , but I don’t know where, you see, that’s why I wanted to do this as a podcast, because I don’t think there is any sort of like formula.
  We’re just like feeling our way through this right now.
  I think what we want is choice.
• Yeah, I agree.
  At this point, I mean, it’s almost like what, I guess like what YouTube was for embeds.
  I mean, we need to break the functionality out.
  And it’s weird because it’s not Skype, it’s not chat, it’s not Mebo or any of those things.
  I mean, they’ve already captured kind of our idea of this package of how this communication’s methodology works.
  Gilmore’s not too far off with his sort of bus idea, but that’s closer to Friend Feed, and I’m just still not 100% sold on that, not being the shiny toy.
  But it’s somewhere, it’s close.
• Explain that.
  You’re not sold on Friend Feed? Is that what you’re saying?
• Yeah, I mean, I like it.
  I don’t know that it ever becomes, you know, simple business facil itation.
  I think it’s just too much good for the shiny people, the people who like all of the aggregation and the river in the face kind of people, you know.
• Well, but it’s not a river.
  I mean, that’s the thing about it.
  It’s not easily understood.
  I’ve been using Friend Feed for like almost as long as I’ve been using Twitter, I think, you know? And I’m still very confused about what it’s doing.
  I mean, I ask people questions like, Skobal was over here a couple of nights ago, and I was asking, you know, I can’t figure out how it works.
  And I’m not like the stupid, I mean, it’s, it’s, it should be, it should, everything should start simple, okay, and then the richness of it should, you know, unveil itself at a time when it ’s meaningful.
  Problem with Friend Feed is, is that the complexity and richness of it is in your face from day one, which sort of keeps it from growing too fast.
  And I don’t think that’s a good thing.
  I think I’ve counseled them from the very beginning.
  I think the things to do there would be to exactly clone Twitter and then, then start upgrading it, you know? It’s what Microsoft did so well , embrace and extend.
  Start, but first you have to do the embrace.
• Right. - ‘Cause you can never get the users to, to give you the attention unless you do that, it just won ’t happen.
• Exactly.
  I mean, what I say about Friend Feed all the time is, what, what’s really cool about Friend Feed is that it’s sort of like the back of a high-def TV.
  There’s all those little HDMI cables and you can put your Wii on it, it all works nicely, but you know what? When I bring you to my house and say, “Come check out my new awesome TV,” I bring you in and I show you the front of the TV where Transformers is playing or something and you go, “Holy cow, that’s huge. " And you know, you look at the shiny picture, I don’t flip the thing around and show you the cables first.
• Yeah, no, that’s a beautiful analogy.
  That is really, really good.
• Yeah. - Well, thanks.
  I mean, that’s the beauty of Friend Feed is that thing.
  The beauty is that it’s that plugs all over the back.
  I mean - No, but I don’t like that.
  I don’t like, but when I first saw an Apple II, Chris, I said, “This is not for me.
  “I’m not doing this shit. " I mean, basically the Apple II, I don’t know if you remember the Apple II, but
• Oh boy, do I.
• Do you, I mean, yeah, you know, part of the user interface of the Apple II were the card slots, you know?
• Yes.
• You know, you’d actually have to lift the top to get functionality, to pull cards out and, you know, I just looked at it and I said, “Geez, I don’t do this. " And, you know, of course, very quickly after that, I learned that I had to do it.
  It couldn’t avoid doing it, but , you know, I looked at the back of the HD, I have had that experience over and over and over again, and I can’t wait to get to the front ‘cause I don’t like the back, you know? So yeah, yeah, I think that’s very much it.
  I think Scoble loves that, though.
  I mean, Scoble, for him, this is the thing that he’s mastered, and it’s like, you know, he’s Mr. Twitch.
  I mean, he likes having all these inputs wired straight into his brain.
  He just thrives off that, you know?
• Right. - I don’t, you know, it’s not me, and so it doesn’t really do it for me.
• Well, and again, I mean, it’s , I guess sort of, we’re still striving.
  I mean, to me, the two big technology shifts in 2008 that I like to point to as an interesting paradox is that the flip video camera did so damn well against all these other video cameras, and that the iPhone did so well against all these other phone platforms .
  So one is like, really complex, but my three-year-old knows how to use it, and the other’s just ridiculously easy.
  And like, I was sitting with a CEO of Panasonic, Yoshi Yamada, and Ponzi Perillo asked him the question, you know, why isn’t yours anything like this? And he picked up the flip, and he just held it in his hands kind of reverently , and he said, “This thing is beautiful. " And he said in this kind of like, really thoughtful Japanese guy way, and he said, “Technology-wise, easy.
  “It’ll take me five minutes to make. " He says, “But beautiful. " And I feel bad that we missed it.
  And I think, wow, you know, it ’s quite a thing coming from him from Panasonic, but I think that’s that with Friend Feed, and I think that Facebook, Facebook, Twitter, I mean, is so close to feeling like the flip video of this kind of communications thing, but they’ve got to give it back to us now.
  It’s our turn.
  That’s a really good way of putting it.
  I want to get in this, you know .
  I want so much to be more involved in what’s going on here, and there’s not a whole lot of ways for me to do that, you know.
• Right, right.
  Well, I mean, you’ve done a lot of what you could.
  I mean, you’ve worked all around the API with the photo project and some of the other projects, so, I mean, you’ve certainly gotten your way in there, but it’s all - Well, and there are new ones.
  I have a new toy I’m playing with now that I love, and, you know, but I’m never going to be happy until I’m right there in the middle of it, you know.
  I’ve got to be deeper in.
  I got to get, you know, right now, I’m sort of like in it up to my fingernails, right, and I want to get into it up to my elbows and then up to my shoulders, you know.
  I want to get really dirty.
  But I still want to start with the front, you know.
  It’s like using your HDTV analogy.
  You know, the problem with Al conica is that it gives me the back of the HDTV, but the back is all the way over in Sausalito, and I’m sitting here in Berkeley, you know.
• Right.
• And so, the picture is really tiny, you know.
  I mean, I’m looking at my window right now, and I can see the other end of the Golden Gate Bridge, you know, and so I can see Sa usalito from here, but I don’t think I could actually see a TV set from that far away.
  And Alconica could, if I really , really, really was willing to learn, I had to learn PHP, and I’d have to learn all about how they do their stuff and my SQL and all the rest of the stuff, yeah, I could probably have my way with it.
  But that is not the way I need to have my way with it.
  I need to be able to get in there, do my thing, and then very, very quickly pass it off to Zildman, okay? To a designer. - Right.
• To somebody who only understands CSS and JavaScript, and, you know, maybe I don’t even need to be in the loop on this.
  Maybe they could figure out how to talk to each other without a guy like me in the middle, you know, that would actually be kind of refreshing if we got to that point too.
  But right now, Alconica doesn’t speak their language, and it doesn’t even speak enough of my language that I can explain to them what it is that I want them to do.
  But if I showed them Radio 8, which we did seven years ago, right? So it’s already a long time, right? So if I could show them how it did its templating, then that’s exactly what I want them to do, you know? I mean, you had complete control over every element of the user interface there.
  And it’s not to say a whole lot of people did anything with it because Radio was never the product that Twitter is, you know? Twitter, however, would have a lot of people putting huge amounts of time into it.
  But, you know, whether they ever do that at Twitter, I don’t know.
  I mean, it’s a, I don’t see why they should, actually.
• Well, I tell you what.
  Prodigy is going to be the wave of the future.
  Copy-serve is it.
  (laughing) AOL knows what they’re doing.
• Are you kidding? You’re not, you’re not serious.
  That was sorry.
• No.
• Okay, good.
• I’m, you know, the way that the road to hell is paved with people who really knew what the hell they were doing.
• Okay, that’s a really, let’s end right there.
  I think that’s a great place to go.
  You know, when you said copy-s erve, my brain started burning.
  I mean, it’s just, I’m very global, Chris.
  You gotta understand, I don’t get irony.
  So it’s like, really? But I love talking with you, man.
  Let’s do this more often, okay?
• I appreciate it, it was really good, Dave.
• Right on.
  Okay, thanks, Chris.
  Hey, wait, wait, before we go, what’s your handle on Twitter?
• Oh, uh, Chris Brogan.
• Spell that.
• C-H-R-I-S-B-R-O-G-A-N.
• So send him a direct message and tell him what you think, everybody, okay? And Chris, thanks so much, okay ? Talk to you later.
• Thanks, Dave.