WEBVTT

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 I don't know, I've never used

00:00:01.350 --> 00:00:04.000
 iTunes, for example, I've never

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, you know, I use, you

00:00:05.520 --> 00:00:07.650
 know, basically, I use it as a

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 typewriter and email reader and

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 occasionally to surf

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 the web, but I don't use it for

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 anything real.

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 Right, well you could.

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 I know, I just, this program is

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 a free program, it's called

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 Audio Recorder, you download it

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,

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 you look it up on Google Audio

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 Recorder Mac, you download it,

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 you install it like you'd

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 install anything else, and if

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 your Mac has a built-in

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 microphone, as many of them do,

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 you just start recording.

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 Audio Recorder, how do you just

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?

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 That's it, I mean, and you can

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 see it's like a tiny little

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 window.

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 And you just record any

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 conversation?

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 Yeah, basically, that's all, I

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 mean, I only like to use tools

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 that are, you know, very

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 basic tools that almost anybody

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 could use, because that's the

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 technology that I'm most

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 interested in, because I want

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 everybody to be able to do this

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 stuff.

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 So why don't we just go into it

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, and this was originally going

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 to be just a test recording,

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 but my name is Dave Weiner, and

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 I'm coming to you from Script

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ing.com, and I'm sitting

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 here with George Lakoff, and

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 why don't you tell us who you

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 are?

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 I'm George Lakoff, we're at the

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 Rockbridge Institute, I'm a

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 senior fellow here, I also

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 teach at the University of

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 California at Berkeley, where I

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'm in my 36th year as a faculty,

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 and

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 I teach cognitive science and

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 linguistics, and I apply all of

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 that to politics, and I

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 teach courses on that as well.

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 Right, that's why I'm here

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 today, because I've heard you

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 talk a number of times, I've

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 read a couple of your books and

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 articles about you, and found

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 the way you characterize how

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 politics works at a human level

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 has helped me understand a lot,

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 how stuff works, and

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 so I thought that now that

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 everybody is so interested in

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 politics, that now would be

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 a really good time to sort of

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 talk about current events in

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 the context of framing, which

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 is

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 sort of, I'll let you explain

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 what framing is.

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 Alright, are we on now?

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 Yeah, we're on.

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 We're on?

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 Okay, let's go.

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 Terrific.

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 Well, first of all, I want to

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 talk a little bit about what

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 the idea behind framing is,

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 coming out of cognitive science

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.

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 We think in terms of structures

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 called frames, and we don't

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 know that because most of our

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 thought is unconscious,

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 probably 98% of our thought is

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 below the level of

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 consciousness,

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 and framing is the most normal

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 thing you could possibly do

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 when you're using language.

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 Every word evokes a cognitive

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 structure that has certain

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 properties, which are called

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 framing

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 properties.

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 For example, if I'm sitting

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 here with a bottle of water in

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 front of me, and the word

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 bottle

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 has a frame associated with it,

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 it is a container.

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 It usually contains liquids,

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 and you can pour things in and

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 drink things out and pour them

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 out, and you usually pick them

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 up with one or both hands.

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 They're about that size, and

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 they form a certain shape,

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 which you can easily pick them

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 up and

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 drink out of them or pour

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 things out of them, and that's

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 it.

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 That's what you know about a

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 bottle, and there are mental

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 images, you have particular

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 bottles

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 and things you do with bottles,

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 like drink out of them or pour

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 things in the glasses

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 or whatever, but in general,

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 you have in every bottle a

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 container, something you can--

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 The bottle itself is a

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 container.

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 The bottle is a container, that

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's right, it is a container.

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 It has what we'll call a portal

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, something you pour into or

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 drink out of.

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 It has a certain size, that is

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 certain properties of it, and

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 there are things you do with it

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,

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 that call them scenarios.

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 That's it, and it turns out

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 that we know thousands of these

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 frames, that every word is

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 defined

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 with respect to them, and often

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, a bunches of related words are

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 defined with respect

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 to them.

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 Take an institution like the

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 hospital.

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 In a hospital, you know that

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 there are certain roles that

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 are played.

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 There are doctors and nurses

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 and patients and orderlies and

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 people and receptionists, and

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 there are places there in the

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 hospital.

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 There are operating rooms and

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 reception desk, and there are

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 tools that people use, you know

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,

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 scalpels or defibrillators or

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 whatever, and then there are

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 scenarios, you know, it's the

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 doctors who do the operations,

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 they have to prep beforehand

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 when you come into the hospital

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,

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 you go to the reception desk.

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 There are a whole bunch of

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 scenarios that different people

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 do, that's what you know

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 about a hospital.

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 It's true of every institution,

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 but words like doctor and

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 patient and nurse and so on

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 are partially defined in terms

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 of the institutions where those

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 folks function.

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 And so, you know.

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 Could you have another word for

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 a nurse that might give you a

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 different sense of what a

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 nurse is?

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 You could have another word for

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 a nurse, a healthcare provider

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 or a doctor's assistant,

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 or you could make up things,

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 but that would mean something

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 quite different than a nurse.

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 And you know, so that you have

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 understandings, and there are

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 understandings of doctors

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 outside

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 of hospitals and nurses who

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 might be at your home and so on

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, there are functions that they

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 provide, and there are things

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 that doctors do in general,

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 whether they're in hospitals

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 or not, but any word is defined

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 relative to a frame, and then

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 sometimes these frames

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 are metaphorical.

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 But you haven't said what a

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 frame is, I mean you said that.

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 A frame is a cognitive

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 structure, part of your brain,

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 it's physically instantiated in

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 your brain, and those of us who

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 work in neural computation at

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 the international computer

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 science

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 institute at Berkeley, at the

00:06:16.800 --> 00:06:18.980
 Neural Theory of Language

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 program there, have some idea

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 of what the kinds of neural

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 computation are that will

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 compute frames, and what kinds

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 of

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 brain circuitry will do that,

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 fairly simple circuitry.

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 So anytime you have a frame, a

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 word will evoke a frame, you

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 don't necessarily have

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 to have a word to have a frame,

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 but you think in terms of it,

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 and every frame has a bunch

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 of roles, like for example just

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 as a bottle has roles, like it

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 is a container, it has

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 a portal, and then it has

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 scenarios, things that you do

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 with it, over time perhaps or

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 not, and certain relationships

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 between the roles, very, very

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 simple thing, and then they

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 can get as complicated as you

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 like, like a hospital, very

00:07:02.430 --> 00:07:03.700
 complicated framing for

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 understanding

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 a hospital.

00:07:05.540 --> 00:07:06.200
 But how does this relate to

00:07:06.200 --> 00:07:06.540
 politics?

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 Well, it relates to politics

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 everywhere, for a number of

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 reasons.

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 In the simplest case, it has to

00:07:14.980 --> 00:07:18.490
 do with the fact that political

00:07:18.490 --> 00:07:21.360
 actors use language that

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 fits their frames, and that

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 frames are common systems that

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 are part of political ide

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ologies.

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 So you have conservative and

00:07:32.510 --> 00:07:34.260
 progressive ideologies, and we

00:07:34.260 --> 00:07:35.730
'll talk about what they are

00:07:35.730 --> 00:07:36.060
 with an

00:07:36.060 --> 00:07:38.210
 ideology is in a minute, but

00:07:38.210 --> 00:07:40.070
 those ideologies come with

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 systems of frames for

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 understanding

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 certain concepts.

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 So the understanding of what

00:07:46.240 --> 00:07:48.310
 freedom is is very different

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 for conservatives and for

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 progressives, and you have

00:07:51.300 --> 00:07:52.280
 different frames.

00:07:52.280 --> 00:07:53.790
 The understanding of what the

00:07:53.790 --> 00:07:55.350
 market is is very different for

00:07:55.350 --> 00:07:57.280
 conservatives and progressives.

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 The understanding of what

00:07:59.260 --> 00:08:01.700
 equality is is very different,

00:08:01.700 --> 00:08:04.080
 and depending on what views you

00:08:04.080 --> 00:08:05.920
 have in your ideology of these

00:08:05.920 --> 00:08:07.850
 ideas, you're going to frame

00:08:07.850 --> 00:08:09.880
 things very differently using

00:08:09.880 --> 00:08:11.200
 language.

00:08:11.200 --> 00:08:13.660
 So for example, if you talk

00:08:13.660 --> 00:08:16.220
 about, you say, cut and run

00:08:16.220 --> 00:08:19.300
 from Iraq, what you're doing is

00:08:19.300 --> 00:08:22.590
 evoking a frame of war, victory

00:08:22.590 --> 00:08:26.250
, heroism, honor, versus coward

00:08:26.250 --> 00:08:27.080
ice.

00:08:27.080 --> 00:08:28.960
 The opposite of that, actually,

00:08:28.960 --> 00:08:29.980
 is honor, yes.

00:08:29.980 --> 00:08:32.300
 So part of a frame is the

00:08:32.300 --> 00:08:34.340
 opposite frame.

00:08:34.340 --> 00:08:35.460
 You use the word "progressive"

00:08:35.460 --> 00:08:36.280
 but not "liberal."

00:08:36.280 --> 00:08:37.840
 You don't like the word "liber

00:08:37.840 --> 00:08:38.280
al"?

00:08:38.280 --> 00:08:39.630
 Well, the word "liberal," let

00:08:39.630 --> 00:08:40.880
 me just mention a little bit of

00:08:40.880 --> 00:08:41.580
 the history.

00:08:41.580 --> 00:08:43.000
 Because I've noticed that when

00:08:43.000 --> 00:08:44.330
 you talk about this stuff, you

00:08:44.330 --> 00:08:45.750
 tend to use the word "progress

00:08:45.750 --> 00:08:46.200
ive."

00:08:46.200 --> 00:08:47.730
 Is that because the right has

00:08:47.730 --> 00:08:49.390
 made the word "liberal" sort of

00:08:49.390 --> 00:08:50.300
 a dirty word?

00:08:50.300 --> 00:08:51.800
 And the left has as well.

00:08:51.800 --> 00:08:52.800
 The left has.

00:08:52.800 --> 00:08:53.800
 Really?

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 Both.

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 There's like Barack Obama, for

00:08:55.880 --> 00:08:56.810
 example, doesn't run away from

00:08:56.810 --> 00:08:58.520
 the word "liberal," or at least

00:08:58.520 --> 00:08:59.800
 has said that he doesn't.

00:08:59.800 --> 00:09:01.170
 I don't see him standing up in

00:09:01.170 --> 00:09:02.780
 speeches saying "liberal."

00:09:02.780 --> 00:09:04.250
 Or he doesn't use the word "pro

00:09:04.250 --> 00:09:05.810
gressive" either, for reasons

00:09:05.810 --> 00:09:06.980
 that can tell you in a

00:09:06.980 --> 00:09:07.980
 minute.

00:09:07.980 --> 00:09:08.980
 Right.

00:09:08.980 --> 00:09:09.830
 I'm anxious to get to that

00:09:09.830 --> 00:09:10.740
 because I think that's what

00:09:10.740 --> 00:09:11.800
 people are interested in, is

00:09:11.800 --> 00:09:12.700
 understanding.

00:09:12.700 --> 00:09:13.700
 Sure.

00:09:13.700 --> 00:09:17.230
 But starting in the late 1960s,

00:09:17.230 --> 00:09:19.260
 the right tried to frame

00:09:19.260 --> 00:09:20.460
 liberals.

00:09:20.460 --> 00:09:21.680
 And they framed liberals in

00:09:21.680 --> 00:09:23.040
 terms of tax and spend liberals

00:09:23.040 --> 00:09:23.260
.

00:09:23.260 --> 00:09:24.260
 Yeah.

00:09:24.260 --> 00:09:25.260
 You hear that all the time.

00:09:25.260 --> 00:09:26.310
 Tax and spend, tax and spend

00:09:26.310 --> 00:09:26.860
 liberals.

00:09:26.860 --> 00:09:27.860
 That's one thing.

00:09:27.860 --> 00:09:29.950
 But also the liberal elite, the

00:09:29.950 --> 00:09:31.650
 idea that they look down on

00:09:31.650 --> 00:09:33.560
 common people and that they

00:09:33.560 --> 00:09:35.180
 don't know any, they don't know

00:09:35.180 --> 00:09:36.860
 very, very well, they just want

00:09:36.860 --> 00:09:38.120
 to spend people's money

00:09:38.120 --> 00:09:39.120
 and waste it.

00:09:39.120 --> 00:09:40.920
 They're not too smart, right?

00:09:40.920 --> 00:09:41.920
 They're not too smart.

00:09:41.920 --> 00:09:42.920
 They're an elite.

00:09:42.920 --> 00:09:43.980
 They think they're smart, but

00:09:43.980 --> 00:09:45.200
 they're not really that smart.

00:09:45.200 --> 00:09:46.280
 You got it.

00:09:46.280 --> 00:09:48.640
 And so they have framed the

00:09:48.640 --> 00:09:51.400
 word "liberal" in that way.

00:09:51.400 --> 00:09:54.100
 At the same time, during the

00:09:54.100 --> 00:09:57.390
 Vietnam War, you had Cold War

00:09:57.390 --> 00:09:59.800
 liberals who were supporting

00:09:59.800 --> 00:10:02.220
 the military establishment and

00:10:02.220 --> 00:10:02.660
 so on.

00:10:02.660 --> 00:10:05.840
 And you also have neoliberalism

00:10:05.840 --> 00:10:08.490
, which is where people who

00:10:08.490 --> 00:10:11.420
 support, let's say, the Clinton

00:10:11.420 --> 00:10:15.110
 trade policies were seen as the

00:10:15.110 --> 00:10:17.140
 neoliberals.

00:10:17.140 --> 00:10:18.670
 And those are neoliberal

00:10:18.670 --> 00:10:19.500
 policies.

00:10:19.500 --> 00:10:20.880
 So the word "liberal" has

00:10:20.880 --> 00:10:22.540
 gotten it from the left and the

00:10:22.540 --> 00:10:23.180
 right.

00:10:23.180 --> 00:10:24.860
 When the Center for American

00:10:24.860 --> 00:10:26.540
 Progress had not yet chosen a

00:10:26.540 --> 00:10:28.120
 name and they were looking

00:10:28.120 --> 00:10:30.060
 around, they did a survey and

00:10:30.060 --> 00:10:32.000
 they asked about the words "li

00:10:32.000 --> 00:10:34.320
beral" versus "progressive."

00:10:34.320 --> 00:10:36.400
 They found that about 25% of

00:10:36.400 --> 00:10:38.400
 the people thought liberal was

00:10:38.400 --> 00:10:40.720
 positive and about 80% or more

00:10:40.720 --> 00:10:41.730
 thought progressive was

00:10:41.730 --> 00:10:42.280
 positive.

00:10:42.280 --> 00:10:44.300
 So they chose Center for

00:10:44.300 --> 00:10:46.280
 American Progress.

00:10:46.280 --> 00:10:47.950
 And Hillary will say she's a

00:10:47.950 --> 00:10:49.840
 progressive, not a liberal,

00:10:49.840 --> 00:10:51.620
 because she knows that poll

00:10:51.620 --> 00:10:53.980
 very well.

00:10:53.980 --> 00:10:55.590
 So there are uses of the word

00:10:55.590 --> 00:10:56.060
 now.

00:10:56.060 --> 00:10:57.380
 So is it beyond hope?

00:10:57.380 --> 00:10:58.750
 Can we ever recover that word

00:10:58.750 --> 00:11:00.050
 or do we just have to leave it

00:11:00.050 --> 00:11:01.100
 alone and move on?

00:11:01.100 --> 00:11:02.540
 I think we have to recover the

00:11:02.540 --> 00:11:03.940
 word, but it's not easy.

00:11:03.940 --> 00:11:05.220
 It seems that way to me, too.

00:11:05.220 --> 00:11:07.000
 In other words, you're living a

00:11:07.000 --> 00:11:08.780
 loss, stay out there, and it's

00:11:08.780 --> 00:11:10.180
 sort of on everybody's

00:11:10.180 --> 00:11:11.180
 mind.

00:11:11.180 --> 00:11:12.330
 It's kind of like the way the

00:11:12.330 --> 00:11:13.580
 Republicans are changing the

00:11:13.580 --> 00:11:15.100
 name of the Democratic Party

00:11:15.100 --> 00:11:16.520
 to the Democrat Party.

00:11:16.520 --> 00:11:18.450
 This is a very nasty thing that

00:11:18.450 --> 00:11:20.160
 they're doing, isn't it?

00:11:20.160 --> 00:11:21.370
 It softens our whole idea of

00:11:21.370 --> 00:11:22.120
 what...

00:11:22.120 --> 00:11:23.780
 I mean, I'm not a Democrat

00:11:23.780 --> 00:11:25.540
 myself, but I don't like nasty

00:11:25.540 --> 00:11:26.880
 people, though.

00:11:26.880 --> 00:11:28.300
 Well, that's exactly what they

00:11:28.300 --> 00:11:28.920
're doing.

00:11:28.920 --> 00:11:30.490
 They're saying that what they

00:11:30.490 --> 00:11:31.810
're doing by using that is

00:11:31.810 --> 00:11:33.270
 saying that the Democratic

00:11:33.270 --> 00:11:33.680
 Party

00:11:33.680 --> 00:11:34.680
 is not...

00:11:34.680 --> 00:11:35.960
 The Democratic Party is not

00:11:35.960 --> 00:11:36.600
 Democratic.

00:11:36.600 --> 00:11:39.460
 Are you sure it's that specific

00:11:39.460 --> 00:11:39.760
?

00:11:39.760 --> 00:11:41.880
 Yes, it's absolutely.

00:11:41.880 --> 00:11:43.860
 When you say that, what you're

00:11:43.860 --> 00:11:44.920
 saying is it is not a

00:11:44.920 --> 00:11:46.300
 Democratic Party.

00:11:46.300 --> 00:11:48.200
 You're contrasting it, because

00:11:48.200 --> 00:11:49.970
 everybody knows when they hear

00:11:49.970 --> 00:11:51.780
 Democrat Party that it's the

00:11:51.780 --> 00:11:53.940
 opposite of Democratic Party,

00:11:53.940 --> 00:11:55.600
 that it's another name for it,

00:11:55.600 --> 00:11:57.180
 and it says that the word

00:11:57.180 --> 00:11:57.860
 Democratic

00:11:57.860 --> 00:12:00.300
 Party is not appropriate.

00:12:00.300 --> 00:12:01.780
 That is part of the message.

00:12:01.780 --> 00:12:03.760
 You see, I just noticed that

00:12:03.760 --> 00:12:06.200
 John McCain started doing this.

00:12:06.200 --> 00:12:07.760
 It's almost like he received

00:12:07.760 --> 00:12:09.380
 some instructions from IUP in

00:12:09.380 --> 00:12:11.100
 the last two weeks, since he's

00:12:11.100 --> 00:12:12.770
 become the presumptive nominee

00:12:12.770 --> 00:12:14.300
 of the Republican Party, or I

00:12:14.300 --> 00:12:15.960
 call it the Republic Party.

00:12:15.960 --> 00:12:16.960
 Yes.

00:12:16.960 --> 00:12:18.100
 And I do that in writing very

00:12:18.100 --> 00:12:19.410
 consistently, because I would

00:12:19.410 --> 00:12:20.560
 like to devalue their name

00:12:20.560 --> 00:12:22.360
 as much as they maybe get that

00:12:22.360 --> 00:12:24.000
 point across somehow.

00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:25.000
 Yeah.

00:12:25.000 --> 00:12:27.090
 But it's very important that

00:12:27.090 --> 00:12:29.370
 they do that, and McCain, I'm

00:12:29.370 --> 00:12:31.840
 sure, is getting instructions

00:12:31.840 --> 00:12:33.320
 from people like Frank Luntz.

00:12:33.320 --> 00:12:35.540
 His member, Mark McKinnon, is

00:12:35.540 --> 00:12:37.480
 his advisor, and I'm sure McK

00:12:37.480 --> 00:12:39.880
innon is right in there on

00:12:39.880 --> 00:12:40.880
 that.

00:12:40.880 --> 00:12:42.770
 You know, so Luntz and McKinnon

00:12:42.770 --> 00:12:44.590
 would certainly have told them

00:12:44.590 --> 00:12:45.960
 things of this sort.

00:12:45.960 --> 00:12:47.280
 And that is part of showing

00:12:47.280 --> 00:12:48.880
 that you're a conservative.

00:12:48.880 --> 00:12:49.880
 Yeah.

00:12:49.880 --> 00:12:50.880
 Right?

00:12:50.880 --> 00:12:52.750
 That is, as a conservative, you

00:12:52.750 --> 00:12:54.430
 are denigrating the Democratic

00:12:54.430 --> 00:12:55.580
 Party in that way.

00:12:55.580 --> 00:12:56.580
 The nasty, basically.

00:12:56.580 --> 00:12:57.580
 Yes.

00:12:57.580 --> 00:12:59.120
 It's just, you know, you're

00:12:59.120 --> 00:13:00.670
 cheating in a way, or cutting

00:13:00.670 --> 00:13:02.420
 corners, that's the way I see

00:13:02.420 --> 00:13:03.420
 it.

00:13:03.420 --> 00:13:04.420
 Well, what you--

00:13:04.420 --> 00:13:05.190
 Now, should Democrats cut

00:13:05.190 --> 00:13:05.980
 corners that way, too?

00:13:05.980 --> 00:13:07.410
 Should we come back at them

00:13:07.410 --> 00:13:09.340
 with a fight, fire, with fire?

00:13:09.340 --> 00:13:10.340
 I mean--

00:13:10.340 --> 00:13:12.150
 I think they're-- that's--

00:13:12.150 --> 00:13:13.740
 should we have a-- should we

00:13:13.740 --> 00:13:14.920
 have a swift boating of John

00:13:14.920 --> 00:13:15.920
 McCain?

00:13:15.920 --> 00:13:17.210
 Should we be looking out,

00:13:17.210 --> 00:13:18.820
 knowing out there, looking for

00:13:18.820 --> 00:13:20.110
 people who will say that in

00:13:20.110 --> 00:13:20.600
 Vietnam

00:13:20.600 --> 00:13:22.350
 he was a coward, and he cut and

00:13:22.350 --> 00:13:24.170
 run, and all that kind of stuff

00:13:24.170 --> 00:13:24.400
?

00:13:24.400 --> 00:13:26.500
 I think the main thing is to

00:13:26.500 --> 00:13:28.990
 tell the truth, to always tell

00:13:28.990 --> 00:13:30.140
 the truth.

00:13:30.140 --> 00:13:31.440
 Because if you don't, it will

00:13:31.440 --> 00:13:32.800
 out you, and not only that, if

00:13:32.800 --> 00:13:34.240
 you're progressive, that's

00:13:34.240 --> 00:13:35.240
 one of your values.

00:13:35.240 --> 00:13:37.730
 But hasn't that always been how

00:13:37.730 --> 00:13:37.960
--

00:13:37.960 --> 00:13:39.620
 And the question is, can you

00:13:39.620 --> 00:13:41.460
 tell the truth effectively?

00:13:41.460 --> 00:13:42.310
 Can you win by telling the

00:13:42.310 --> 00:13:42.700
 truth?

00:13:42.700 --> 00:13:44.710
 And I think the answer is yes,

00:13:44.710 --> 00:13:45.880
 absolutely.

00:13:45.880 --> 00:13:47.140
 But you have to really know

00:13:47.140 --> 00:13:48.500
 what it is you're telling the

00:13:48.500 --> 00:13:49.340
 truth about.

00:13:49.340 --> 00:13:50.710
 But isn't that what they're

00:13:50.710 --> 00:13:52.420
 always painting progressives or

00:13:52.420 --> 00:13:53.900
 liberals as, is being sort

00:13:53.900 --> 00:13:55.790
 of naive, goody, two-shoes,

00:13:55.790 --> 00:13:57.620
 that it's a dangerous world out

00:13:57.620 --> 00:13:59.930
 there, and, you know, you can't

00:13:59.930 --> 00:14:00.300
 fight

00:14:00.300 --> 00:14:02.380
 the Islamic-- Islamofascists

00:14:02.380 --> 00:14:04.250
 with, you know, with those kind

00:14:04.250 --> 00:14:05.980
 of tactics, because they'll

00:14:05.980 --> 00:14:07.480
 take advantage, that's why they

00:14:07.480 --> 00:14:08.920
 hate us, right, is because we

00:14:08.920 --> 00:14:10.000
're free, you know.

00:14:10.000 --> 00:14:15.120
 Let's go right into it, then.

00:14:15.120 --> 00:14:17.640
 I first got into working on

00:14:17.640 --> 00:14:20.540
 American politics deeply with a

00:14:20.540 --> 00:14:23.320
 book called Moral Politics.

00:14:23.320 --> 00:14:25.000
 And what I did in that book was

00:14:25.000 --> 00:14:26.860
 ask a certain question from the

00:14:26.860 --> 00:14:28.480
 point of view of a cognitive

00:14:28.480 --> 00:14:31.660
 scientist, which is, why should

00:14:31.660 --> 00:14:33.980
 conservatives, radical

00:14:33.980 --> 00:14:36.790
 conservatives, have certain

00:14:36.790 --> 00:14:37.860
 positions

00:14:37.860 --> 00:14:38.940
 coming together?

00:14:38.940 --> 00:14:41.340
 Why should they be, you know,

00:14:41.340 --> 00:14:43.580
 against abortion and for the

00:14:43.580 --> 00:14:44.580
 flat tax?

00:14:44.580 --> 00:14:45.660
 What does abortion have to do

00:14:45.660 --> 00:14:46.360
 with taxation?

00:14:46.360 --> 00:14:49.720
 Why should they be, you know,

00:14:49.720 --> 00:14:52.140
 against environmental

00:14:52.140 --> 00:14:53.980
 regulations?

00:14:53.980 --> 00:14:55.590
 But what does that have to do

00:14:55.590 --> 00:14:57.340
 with taxation or abortion?

00:14:57.340 --> 00:14:59.030
 Why should they be for tort

00:14:59.030 --> 00:15:01.030
 reform and why should they want

00:15:01.030 --> 00:15:02.920
 to, you know, cut taxes and

00:15:02.920 --> 00:15:03.920
 so on?

00:15:03.920 --> 00:15:04.790
 What are all of these positions

00:15:04.790 --> 00:15:04.920
?

00:15:04.920 --> 00:15:06.890
 What do they want to make sure

00:15:06.890 --> 00:15:08.550
 that everybody can buy a

00:15:08.550 --> 00:15:09.720
 machine gun?

00:15:09.720 --> 00:15:11.350
 I mean, you know, why is-- what

00:15:11.350 --> 00:15:12.910
 do these things have to do with

00:15:12.910 --> 00:15:13.720
 each other?

00:15:13.720 --> 00:15:15.260
 Did you mention abortion in

00:15:15.260 --> 00:15:15.840
 there?

00:15:15.840 --> 00:15:16.840
 Abortion was the first one.

00:15:16.840 --> 00:15:17.840
 Right.

00:15:17.840 --> 00:15:18.840
 Yeah.

00:15:18.840 --> 00:15:20.090
 Because most Republicans, I don

00:15:20.090 --> 00:15:21.170
't think actually are pro-- I

00:15:21.170 --> 00:15:22.400
 think they are pro-choice.

00:15:22.400 --> 00:15:23.770
 I think most Republicans are

00:15:23.770 --> 00:15:25.370
 pro-choice, which is one of the

00:15:25.370 --> 00:15:26.760
 weird things, you know.

00:15:26.760 --> 00:15:28.640
 Well, it's the-- but they can't

00:15:28.640 --> 00:15:30.450
 say it in one thing, but if you

00:15:30.450 --> 00:15:32.220
 take the official position,

00:15:32.220 --> 00:15:33.350
 the official conservative

00:15:33.350 --> 00:15:36.330
 position, they're against it,

00:15:36.330 --> 00:15:36.860
 right?

00:15:36.860 --> 00:15:38.260
 And why should they be?

00:15:38.260 --> 00:15:40.840
 Why should they fit together in

00:15:40.840 --> 00:15:41.860
 that way?

00:15:41.860 --> 00:15:43.450
 And why should a progressive's

00:15:43.450 --> 00:15:44.920
 positions be the opposite on

00:15:44.920 --> 00:15:46.300
 all these dimensions and

00:15:46.300 --> 00:15:47.300
 many others?

00:15:47.300 --> 00:15:48.910
 Because what do they have to do

00:15:48.910 --> 00:15:49.980
 with each other?

00:15:49.980 --> 00:15:52.070
 What I discovered was that it

00:15:52.070 --> 00:15:54.330
 had to do with metaphor, oddly

00:15:54.330 --> 00:15:56.340
 enough, and that's one of

00:15:56.340 --> 00:15:58.430
 the things I have worked on in

00:15:58.430 --> 00:16:00.910
 cognitive science and cognitive

00:16:00.910 --> 00:16:02.200
 linguistics.

00:16:02.200 --> 00:16:04.390
 We think metaphorically, we--

00:16:04.390 --> 00:16:06.720
 and it's largely unconscious.

00:16:06.720 --> 00:16:08.840
 We don't know that we do.

00:16:08.840 --> 00:16:10.700
 And we have thousands of metaph

00:16:10.700 --> 00:16:12.560
ors we think in terms of without

00:16:12.560 --> 00:16:13.520
 knowing it.

00:16:13.520 --> 00:16:15.520
 And we learn them without even

00:16:15.520 --> 00:16:17.600
 language, even before we have

00:16:17.600 --> 00:16:18.520
 language.

00:16:18.520 --> 00:16:20.680
 We have metaphorical thought.

00:16:20.680 --> 00:16:23.050
 And we learn them in a

00:16:23.050 --> 00:16:25.000
 particular way.

00:16:25.000 --> 00:16:26.900
 And for example, of the

00:16:26.900 --> 00:16:28.120
 metaphor that more is up and

00:16:28.120 --> 00:16:29.140
 less is down.

00:16:29.140 --> 00:16:31.110
 We have prices go up, prices go

00:16:31.110 --> 00:16:32.770
 down, and then nothing is

00:16:32.770 --> 00:16:34.860
 literally going up or down.

00:16:34.860 --> 00:16:35.860
 Right.

00:16:35.860 --> 00:16:36.860
 Or--

00:16:36.860 --> 00:16:37.860
 So how did that happen?

00:16:37.860 --> 00:16:39.830
 How did we get that sense about

00:16:39.830 --> 00:16:40.260
 the--

00:16:40.260 --> 00:16:42.260
 The reason is this.

00:16:42.260 --> 00:16:43.840
 Every time you pour water into

00:16:43.840 --> 00:16:45.500
 a glass, the level goes up.

00:16:45.500 --> 00:16:46.680
 You pour more water in, the

00:16:46.680 --> 00:16:47.460
 level goes up.

00:16:47.460 --> 00:16:48.460
 Interesting.

00:16:48.460 --> 00:16:49.490
 You take it out, the level goes

00:16:49.490 --> 00:16:49.860
 down.

00:16:49.860 --> 00:16:51.770
 You pour more-- put more things

00:16:51.770 --> 00:16:53.580
 on your desk, the level goes up

00:16:53.580 --> 00:16:53.860
.

00:16:53.860 --> 00:16:55.070
 Every day there is a

00:16:55.070 --> 00:16:57.150
 correlation in your experience

00:16:57.150 --> 00:16:59.160
 between quantity and vertical

00:16:59.160 --> 00:16:59.680
ity.

00:16:59.680 --> 00:17:01.630
 Now what does that do to your

00:17:01.630 --> 00:17:02.320
 brain?

00:17:02.320 --> 00:17:04.820
 In your brain, you register

00:17:04.820 --> 00:17:07.230
 verticality whenever you see it

00:17:07.230 --> 00:17:09.920
 or experience it physically.

00:17:09.920 --> 00:17:12.370
 And you register quantity in a

00:17:12.370 --> 00:17:14.520
 different part of your brain.

00:17:14.520 --> 00:17:16.020
 And we know there are different

00:17:16.020 --> 00:17:17.110
 parts of the brain that

00:17:17.110 --> 00:17:18.680
 register these two things.

00:17:18.680 --> 00:17:20.560
 Now when you-- but when they

00:17:20.560 --> 00:17:22.550
 come together every day, over

00:17:22.550 --> 00:17:24.520
 and over, you activate them

00:17:24.520 --> 00:17:26.520
 simultaneously.

00:17:26.520 --> 00:17:28.120
 What happens then is activation

00:17:28.120 --> 00:17:29.660
 spreads from those two centers

00:17:29.660 --> 00:17:30.960
 throughout the brain.

00:17:30.960 --> 00:17:34.340
 And as it spreads outward, you

00:17:34.340 --> 00:17:37.840
 know, even as a child, you get

00:17:37.840 --> 00:17:41.200
 synapses, synapses changing

00:17:41.200 --> 00:17:43.310
 along the paths until the paths

00:17:43.310 --> 00:17:43.780
 meet.

00:17:43.780 --> 00:17:45.050
 They meet in the shortest

00:17:45.050 --> 00:17:46.400
 possible connection.

00:17:46.400 --> 00:17:48.260
 And they form a circuit.

00:17:48.260 --> 00:17:49.970
 And that circuit is the

00:17:49.970 --> 00:17:52.330
 metaphor that more is up and

00:17:52.330 --> 00:17:53.280
 less is down.

00:17:53.280 --> 00:17:55.200
 It computes that metaphor

00:17:55.200 --> 00:17:56.640
 automatically.

00:17:56.640 --> 00:17:58.400
 And the more you use it, the

00:17:58.400 --> 00:17:59.780
 more the synapses are

00:17:59.780 --> 00:18:01.040
 strengthened.

00:18:01.040 --> 00:18:02.200
 That's what synapses do.

00:18:02.200 --> 00:18:03.610
 The more you use them, the more

00:18:03.610 --> 00:18:04.880
 they're strengthened.

00:18:04.880 --> 00:18:06.630
 And so that metaphor is there

00:18:06.630 --> 00:18:07.700
 permanently.

00:18:07.700 --> 00:18:08.830
 And this is true around the

00:18:08.830 --> 00:18:09.280
 world.

00:18:09.280 --> 00:18:11.200
 It is not only true in this

00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:13.080
 culture, et cetera.

00:18:13.080 --> 00:18:14.530
 Now it is-- take another

00:18:14.530 --> 00:18:15.320
 example.

00:18:15.320 --> 00:18:16.830
 Well, go back to the question

00:18:16.830 --> 00:18:18.340
 you raised at the beginning of

00:18:18.340 --> 00:18:19.640
 this, is that how is gun

00:18:19.640 --> 00:18:20.940
 control and abortion and all

00:18:20.940 --> 00:18:22.970
 these things-- are they related

00:18:22.970 --> 00:18:24.820
 in that way that you sort

00:18:24.820 --> 00:18:26.190
 of associated them with each

00:18:26.190 --> 00:18:26.660
 other?

00:18:26.660 --> 00:18:28.340
 Here's how they're related in a

00:18:28.340 --> 00:18:29.580
 very indirect way.

00:18:29.580 --> 00:18:32.380
 But there's a metaphor plays a

00:18:32.380 --> 00:18:32.860
 role.

00:18:32.860 --> 00:18:34.070
 What is your earliest

00:18:34.070 --> 00:18:35.830
 experience with governance in

00:18:35.830 --> 00:18:36.740
 your family?

00:18:36.740 --> 00:18:37.740
 Of course.

00:18:37.740 --> 00:18:38.740
 Okay?

00:18:38.740 --> 00:18:40.670
 Now what you do is you learn

00:18:40.670 --> 00:18:43.110
 that governance involves people

00:18:43.110 --> 00:18:45.020
 telling you what to do and

00:18:45.020 --> 00:18:47.360
 setting rules and so on for

00:18:47.360 --> 00:18:49.580
 carrying out your life.

00:18:49.580 --> 00:18:51.000
 And then there are people in

00:18:51.000 --> 00:18:52.540
 your family who you relate to.

00:18:52.540 --> 00:18:54.000
 And those are in different

00:18:54.000 --> 00:18:55.620
 parts of your brain again.

00:18:55.620 --> 00:18:56.620
 So what you--

00:18:56.620 --> 00:18:57.950
 Which two are in different

00:18:57.950 --> 00:18:59.140
 parts of your brain?

00:18:59.140 --> 00:19:00.140
 Governance.

00:19:00.140 --> 00:19:01.140
 Governance.

00:19:01.140 --> 00:19:02.140
 And the members of your family.

00:19:02.140 --> 00:19:02.580
 And the members of your family

00:19:02.580 --> 00:19:03.140
 that you're interacting with.

00:19:03.140 --> 00:19:04.410
 But you start associating

00:19:04.410 --> 00:19:06.180
 governance and family, right?

00:19:06.180 --> 00:19:08.140
 Because they're active together

00:19:08.140 --> 00:19:08.300
.

00:19:08.300 --> 00:19:09.930
 And therefore, you're going to,

00:19:09.930 --> 00:19:11.310
 again, just with more is up,

00:19:11.310 --> 00:19:12.510
 you're going to learn

00:19:12.510 --> 00:19:12.960
 connections

00:19:12.960 --> 00:19:13.960
 between them.

00:19:13.960 --> 00:19:15.290
 And you're going to learn that

00:19:15.290 --> 00:19:16.550
 a governing institution is a

00:19:16.550 --> 00:19:17.100
 family.

00:19:17.100 --> 00:19:18.100
 That's a metaphor.

00:19:18.100 --> 00:19:19.210
 And it's a metaphor we'll learn

00:19:19.210 --> 00:19:19.380
.

00:19:19.380 --> 00:19:21.720
 And around the world, people

00:19:21.720 --> 00:19:24.310
 have things like Mother Russia,

00:19:24.310 --> 00:19:26.940
 Mother India, the Fatherland

00:19:26.940 --> 00:19:28.680
 and so on, in which the nation,

00:19:28.680 --> 00:19:30.230
 which is the major governing

00:19:30.230 --> 00:19:31.820
 institution is a family.

00:19:31.820 --> 00:19:33.150
 But also something like the

00:19:33.150 --> 00:19:34.400
 church is seen as a family

00:19:34.400 --> 00:19:35.900
 where you have the Pope as the

00:19:35.900 --> 00:19:38.420
 Holy Father and nuns or sisters

00:19:38.420 --> 00:19:39.300
 and so on.

00:19:39.300 --> 00:19:41.360
 So what you have is governing

00:19:41.360 --> 00:19:43.480
 institutions or families as a

00:19:43.480 --> 00:19:44.480
 metaphor.

00:19:44.480 --> 00:19:46.600
 Now it turns out we have two

00:19:46.600 --> 00:19:48.470
 very different kinds of

00:19:48.470 --> 00:19:50.670
 families in this country as

00:19:50.670 --> 00:19:51.240
 ideal

00:19:51.240 --> 00:19:52.760
 models.

00:19:52.760 --> 00:19:54.340
 Whether you're raised by that

00:19:54.340 --> 00:19:55.830
 or not, you learn the ideal

00:19:55.830 --> 00:19:56.440
 models.

00:19:56.440 --> 00:19:57.900
 One of them is a strict father

00:19:57.900 --> 00:19:58.480
 family.

00:19:58.480 --> 00:19:59.610
 The other is a nurturing parent

00:19:59.610 --> 00:20:00.040
 family.

00:20:00.040 --> 00:20:01.040
 I see.

00:20:01.040 --> 00:20:01.900
 This is something I hadn't

00:20:01.900 --> 00:20:02.680
 understood before from

00:20:02.680 --> 00:20:03.780
 listening to you, is that, you

00:20:03.780 --> 00:20:04.040
 know,

00:20:04.040 --> 00:20:06.430
 because I always, I mean, my

00:20:06.430 --> 00:20:08.690
 whole family is democratic all

00:20:08.690 --> 00:20:10.580
 the way back, right?

00:20:10.580 --> 00:20:12.160
 But I don't think of my family

00:20:12.160 --> 00:20:13.180
 as nurturing.

00:20:13.180 --> 00:20:14.690
 But you've always said that

00:20:14.690 --> 00:20:16.590
 nurturing and democratic is the

00:20:16.590 --> 00:20:17.860
 female image versus the

00:20:17.860 --> 00:20:18.860
 male strict father.

00:20:18.860 --> 00:20:19.860
 It's not female.

00:20:19.860 --> 00:20:20.860
 Nurturing that, right?

00:20:20.860 --> 00:20:21.890
 Nurturing could be male as

00:20:21.890 --> 00:20:22.360
 though.

00:20:22.360 --> 00:20:23.840
 But isn't it generally the

00:20:23.840 --> 00:20:25.060
 female image now?

00:20:25.060 --> 00:20:26.060
 No, not necessarily.

00:20:26.060 --> 00:20:27.750
 So for some people, it depends

00:20:27.750 --> 00:20:29.580
 on their experience and so on.

00:20:29.580 --> 00:20:32.770
 But male nurturance goes way

00:20:32.770 --> 00:20:33.740
 back.

00:20:33.740 --> 00:20:36.110
 But the idea here is that you

00:20:36.110 --> 00:20:38.180
 have two very different

00:20:38.180 --> 00:20:41.080
 understandings of what a family

00:20:41.080 --> 00:20:43.330
 is about and what governance in

00:20:43.330 --> 00:20:44.680
 that family is.

00:20:44.680 --> 00:20:46.060
 And if you're brought up in a

00:20:46.060 --> 00:20:47.840
 culture, you know both of them.

00:20:47.840 --> 00:20:48.970
 You learn both of them as

00:20:48.970 --> 00:20:50.520
 models, but you may take one as

00:20:50.520 --> 00:20:51.720
 ideal and one as not ideal

00:20:51.720 --> 00:20:53.720
 but there.

00:20:53.720 --> 00:20:56.600
 And the, but you're going to

00:20:56.600 --> 00:20:58.560
 learn them both.

00:20:58.560 --> 00:20:59.760
 And they have, these models

00:20:59.760 --> 00:21:01.000
 have certain properties.

00:21:01.000 --> 00:21:02.620
 And when you map them onto

00:21:02.620 --> 00:21:03.990
 governance, you get two

00:21:03.990 --> 00:21:05.590
 different ideas of what

00:21:05.590 --> 00:21:06.220
 governance

00:21:06.220 --> 00:21:07.840
 is, strict or nurturing

00:21:07.840 --> 00:21:08.900
 governance.

00:21:08.900 --> 00:21:11.080
 And it can be anything from the

00:21:11.080 --> 00:21:13.360
 church group, a little league

00:21:13.360 --> 00:21:15.380
 team, a business seen as a

00:21:15.380 --> 00:21:17.230
 family or the nation seen as a

00:21:17.230 --> 00:21:19.000
 family or a local community

00:21:19.000 --> 00:21:20.340
 seen as a family.

00:21:20.340 --> 00:21:22.660
 But you're going to have a mode

00:21:22.660 --> 00:21:24.820
 of reasoning that occurs in

00:21:24.820 --> 00:21:26.980
 both of these families.

00:21:26.980 --> 00:21:28.390
 And we all have the experience

00:21:28.390 --> 00:21:29.040
 with both.

00:21:29.040 --> 00:21:30.670
 We all know both modes of

00:21:30.670 --> 00:21:31.680
 reasoning.

00:21:31.680 --> 00:21:33.700
 But in general, we use one or

00:21:33.700 --> 00:21:35.800
 the other for our politics and

00:21:35.800 --> 00:21:38.100
 for thinking about politics.

00:21:38.100 --> 00:21:39.770
 But some people use both in

00:21:39.770 --> 00:21:41.480
 different areas of life.

00:21:41.480 --> 00:21:43.910
 These are called biconceptuals

00:21:43.910 --> 00:21:45.200
 or moderates.

00:21:45.200 --> 00:21:46.620
 A moderate is somebody who has

00:21:46.620 --> 00:21:47.080
 both.

00:21:47.080 --> 00:21:50.210
 There is no moderate worldview,

00:21:50.210 --> 00:21:53.340
 no moderate, no single ideology

00:21:53.340 --> 00:21:54.960
 of a moderate.

00:21:54.960 --> 00:21:56.430
 You can have moderates of

00:21:56.430 --> 00:21:58.390
 moderate Republicans are people

00:21:58.390 --> 00:22:00.150
 who are largely conservative

00:22:00.150 --> 00:22:00.420
 but

00:22:00.420 --> 00:22:01.900
 have some progressive views and

00:22:01.900 --> 00:22:03.320
 moderate Democrats are people

00:22:03.320 --> 00:22:04.820
 who are largely progressive but

00:22:04.820 --> 00:22:06.460
 have some conservative views in

00:22:06.460 --> 00:22:07.380
 certain areas.

00:22:07.380 --> 00:22:09.920
 They may be totally different.

00:22:09.920 --> 00:22:11.490
 You know, consider Joe Lieber

00:22:11.490 --> 00:22:13.080
man and Chuck Hagel, who are

00:22:13.080 --> 00:22:14.260
 almost opposites and have

00:22:14.260 --> 00:22:14.740
 almost

00:22:14.740 --> 00:22:16.490
 nothing in common, but they're

00:22:16.490 --> 00:22:18.460
 both called moderates, right?

00:22:18.460 --> 00:22:20.440
 So the idea is you have, you

00:22:20.440 --> 00:22:22.680
 have strict and nurtured modes

00:22:22.680 --> 00:22:23.980
 of reasoning.

00:22:23.980 --> 00:22:25.290
 And let me try to give you a

00:22:25.290 --> 00:22:26.680
 sense of what they are.

00:22:26.680 --> 00:22:28.490
 Because when they project it

00:22:28.490 --> 00:22:30.840
 onto, onto a political domain,

00:22:30.840 --> 00:22:32.240
 they characterize modes

00:22:32.240 --> 00:22:34.680
 of political reasoning.

00:22:34.680 --> 00:22:37.140
 In a strict father family, the

00:22:37.140 --> 00:22:39.490
 father is the moral authority

00:22:39.490 --> 00:22:41.560
 and his role is to protect

00:22:41.560 --> 00:22:42.860
 the family because there's evil

00:22:42.860 --> 00:22:43.840
 in the world and there's a

00:22:43.840 --> 00:22:45.120
 right and wrong and a good and

00:22:45.120 --> 00:22:47.490
 a bad and he knows right from

00:22:47.490 --> 00:22:48.320
 wrong.

00:22:48.320 --> 00:22:50.480
 And he's the strong person who

00:22:50.480 --> 00:22:52.390
 can win the competition to

00:22:52.390 --> 00:22:54.620
 support the family, protect

00:22:54.620 --> 00:22:55.620
 the family.

00:22:55.620 --> 00:22:57.620
 Mommy can't do that.

00:22:57.620 --> 00:22:59.660
 And it's assumed there that

00:22:59.660 --> 00:23:01.580
 children are born bad.

00:23:01.580 --> 00:23:02.500
 They don't know right from

00:23:02.500 --> 00:23:03.550
 wrong, they just do what they

00:23:03.550 --> 00:23:04.060
 want to do.

00:23:04.060 --> 00:23:05.740
 So the strict father is

00:23:05.740 --> 00:23:07.830
 required to teach kids right

00:23:07.830 --> 00:23:10.340
 from wrong by punishing them.

00:23:10.340 --> 00:23:11.970
 And punishing them painfully

00:23:11.970 --> 00:23:13.600
 enough so that they will avoid

00:23:13.600 --> 00:23:15.180
 doing wrong and do right and

00:23:15.180 --> 00:23:17.090
 mommy is supposedly too kind

00:23:17.090 --> 00:23:18.560
 hearted to do that.

00:23:18.560 --> 00:23:20.390
 So you need a strict father to

00:23:20.390 --> 00:23:21.120
 do that.

00:23:21.120 --> 00:23:22.970
 And then if the, and the

00:23:22.970 --> 00:23:25.280
 assumption is this is the only

00:23:25.280 --> 00:23:27.600
 way kids learn to be moral.

00:23:27.600 --> 00:23:28.770
 They have to have that

00:23:28.770 --> 00:23:30.760
 punishment and learn internal

00:23:30.760 --> 00:23:32.400
 discipline to follow the rules.

00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:34.150
 And if they do that, then they

00:23:34.150 --> 00:23:35.970
 can go out into the world, into

00:23:35.970 --> 00:23:37.400
 the free market and use

00:23:37.400 --> 00:23:38.500
 that discipline to become

00:23:38.500 --> 00:23:39.160
 prosperous.

00:23:39.160 --> 00:23:40.540
 There's a logic which says if

00:23:40.540 --> 00:23:41.820
 they're not prosperous, then

00:23:41.820 --> 00:23:43.760
 they're not disciplined.

00:23:43.760 --> 00:23:45.300
 Therefore, they can't be moral

00:23:45.300 --> 00:23:46.730
 if they're not disciplined so

00:23:46.730 --> 00:23:48.560
 they deserve their property.

00:23:48.560 --> 00:23:49.560
 Okay?

00:23:49.560 --> 00:23:50.560
 That's part of it.

00:23:50.560 --> 00:23:51.800
 Certainly heard this plenty of

00:23:51.800 --> 00:23:52.560
 times, right?

00:23:52.560 --> 00:23:53.560
 Over and over.

00:23:53.560 --> 00:23:55.170
 And our current president uses

00:23:55.170 --> 00:23:56.530
 that exact model, that's

00:23:56.530 --> 00:23:57.830
 exactly how he relates to

00:23:57.830 --> 00:23:58.480
 people.

00:23:58.480 --> 00:23:59.480
 You've got it.

00:23:59.480 --> 00:24:00.480
 Right.

00:24:00.480 --> 00:24:01.120
 Not only that, he is the moral

00:24:01.120 --> 00:24:01.480
 authority.

00:24:01.480 --> 00:24:02.480
 Yeah.

00:24:02.480 --> 00:24:03.500
 So the strict father is the

00:24:03.500 --> 00:24:04.760
 moral authority, he's the dec

00:24:04.760 --> 00:24:05.080
ider.

00:24:05.080 --> 00:24:06.080
 Right.

00:24:06.080 --> 00:24:07.200
 Not many people believe that

00:24:07.200 --> 00:24:08.080
 nowadays, right?

00:24:08.080 --> 00:24:09.520
 Isn't that what the 19%

00:24:09.520 --> 00:24:11.160
 approval rating means or where

00:24:11.160 --> 00:24:12.580
 is that what it brings?

00:24:12.580 --> 00:24:14.000
 Well, we'll come back to that.

00:24:14.000 --> 00:24:15.000
 Okay.

00:24:15.000 --> 00:24:15.960
 I want to return to approval

00:24:15.960 --> 00:24:16.940
 ratings and so on, but let's

00:24:16.940 --> 00:24:17.880
 get the motive for it.

00:24:17.880 --> 00:24:19.670
 I just want to say that 40

00:24:19.670 --> 00:24:21.640
 minutes is a pretty good amount

00:24:21.640 --> 00:24:23.740
 of time, so we're at 24 right

00:24:23.740 --> 00:24:24.740
 now.

00:24:24.740 --> 00:24:25.610
 Okay, well let's get through it

00:24:25.610 --> 00:24:25.740
.

00:24:25.740 --> 00:24:27.710
 So the moral authority knows

00:24:27.710 --> 00:24:29.740
 what's right and wrong and then

00:24:29.740 --> 00:24:31.440
 that's what Bush says.

00:24:31.440 --> 00:24:33.060
 He says that in international

00:24:33.060 --> 00:24:34.600
 affairs, the US is the moral

00:24:34.600 --> 00:24:36.200
 authority and he's the moral

00:24:36.200 --> 00:24:37.280
 authority for the country, so

00:24:37.280 --> 00:24:38.280
 he knows what's right and wrong

00:24:38.280 --> 00:24:39.000
 in the world and other

00:24:39.000 --> 00:24:39.440
 countries

00:24:39.440 --> 00:24:41.520
 should follow suit.

00:24:41.520 --> 00:24:42.670
 And our government, he's the

00:24:42.670 --> 00:24:43.860
 decider and tells people in the

00:24:43.860 --> 00:24:44.980
 government what they should

00:24:44.980 --> 00:24:46.270
 and shouldn't do and the

00:24:46.270 --> 00:24:47.460
 Republican Party, he tells

00:24:47.460 --> 00:24:48.760
 people what they should and

00:24:48.760 --> 00:24:49.360
 shouldn't

00:24:49.360 --> 00:24:53.290
 do and then you have other

00:24:53.290 --> 00:24:56.160
 applications.

00:24:56.160 --> 00:24:58.390
 Conservative religion says God

00:24:58.390 --> 00:25:00.400
 is a strict father as opposed

00:25:00.400 --> 00:25:02.220
 to progressive religion which

00:25:02.220 --> 00:25:04.470
 says that God is an urgent

00:25:04.470 --> 00:25:06.900
 parent to opposite views of

00:25:06.900 --> 00:25:08.260
 what God is.

00:25:08.260 --> 00:25:10.760
 The market is very different.

00:25:10.760 --> 00:25:12.860
 The market is a governing

00:25:12.860 --> 00:25:15.260
 institution and so there is a

00:25:15.260 --> 00:25:17.680
 view of let's call it a strict

00:25:17.680 --> 00:25:18.680
 father market.

00:25:18.680 --> 00:25:19.680
 What does that say?

00:25:19.680 --> 00:25:21.390
 It says that the market, let

00:25:21.390 --> 00:25:23.240
 the market decide, the market

00:25:23.240 --> 00:25:25.070
 is the decider, the market imp

00:25:25.070 --> 00:25:25.480
oses

00:25:25.480 --> 00:25:26.920
 a discipline on people and

00:25:26.920 --> 00:25:28.390
 rewards the people who are

00:25:28.390 --> 00:25:30.030
 disciplined and punishes the

00:25:30.030 --> 00:25:30.480
 people

00:25:30.480 --> 00:25:32.320
 who are not and that's natural

00:25:32.320 --> 00:25:33.900
 and moral and that's how it

00:25:33.900 --> 00:25:34.800
 should be.

00:25:34.800 --> 00:25:36.460
 And that since the market is

00:25:36.460 --> 00:25:38.410
 the decider, it's the ultimate

00:25:38.410 --> 00:25:40.440
 authority and so the government

00:25:40.440 --> 00:25:42.080
 shouldn't come in and interfere

00:25:42.080 --> 00:25:43.520
 with the market and there are

00:25:43.520 --> 00:25:44.930
 four kinds of government

00:25:44.930 --> 00:25:46.000
 interference.

00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:48.800
 One is regulation, two is

00:25:48.800 --> 00:25:51.400
 taxation, three is worker

00:25:51.400 --> 00:25:54.400
 rights and four is tort cases.

00:25:54.400 --> 00:25:56.390
 They say well got to be rid of

00:25:56.390 --> 00:25:58.390
 all those because those are

00:25:58.390 --> 00:25:59.240
 interference.

00:25:59.240 --> 00:26:01.530
 So you begin to see how this

00:26:01.530 --> 00:26:03.150
 metaphor of a governing

00:26:03.150 --> 00:26:05.190
 institution is a family and

00:26:05.190 --> 00:26:05.760
 there

00:26:05.760 --> 00:26:06.760
 are two kinds of families.

00:26:06.760 --> 00:26:08.840
 It's a strict father family,

00:26:08.840 --> 00:26:11.320
 gives you conservatism in many

00:26:11.320 --> 00:26:12.930
 different domains of various

00:26:12.930 --> 00:26:13.680
 kinds.

00:26:13.680 --> 00:26:15.560
 And then for progressive, and

00:26:15.560 --> 00:26:17.290
 this is a mode of thought, it

00:26:17.290 --> 00:26:19.040
 may not be, people who call

00:26:19.040 --> 00:26:21.040
 themselves conservatives may

00:26:21.040 --> 00:26:22.930
 not reason this way on every

00:26:22.930 --> 00:26:23.440
 issue.

00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:24.480
 Maybe there are people who

00:26:24.480 --> 00:26:25.760
 might be progressive on certain

00:26:25.760 --> 00:26:27.000
 issues and what does it mean to

00:26:27.000 --> 00:26:29.280
 be progressive?

00:26:29.280 --> 00:26:31.120
 In a progressive nurturing

00:26:31.120 --> 00:26:33.220
 family, the parent's job is to

00:26:33.220 --> 00:26:35.480
 nurture their children, that is

00:26:35.480 --> 00:26:37.160
 to care about them, to empath

00:26:37.160 --> 00:26:38.560
ize with them and to be act

00:26:38.560 --> 00:26:40.560
 responsibly, both taking care

00:26:40.560 --> 00:26:41.560
 of them responsibly for

00:26:41.560 --> 00:26:42.760
 themselves, taking care of

00:26:42.760 --> 00:26:44.010
 themselves and taking care of

00:26:44.010 --> 00:26:44.320
 their

00:26:44.320 --> 00:26:46.210
 kids, and they raise their kids

00:26:46.210 --> 00:26:48.110
 to be nurturers of others, that

00:26:48.110 --> 00:26:50.320
 is they raise their kids to

00:26:50.320 --> 00:26:51.950
 care about other people, to

00:26:51.950 --> 00:26:53.530
 take care of themselves and to

00:26:53.530 --> 00:26:54.970
 care for others and this is

00:26:54.970 --> 00:26:55.520
 like the

00:26:55.520 --> 00:26:58.110
 opposite of an indulgent parent

00:26:58.110 --> 00:26:58.920
 model.

00:26:58.920 --> 00:27:01.360
 Now, if when you apply that to

00:27:01.360 --> 00:27:03.790
 government, certain things

00:27:03.790 --> 00:27:04.760
 happen.

00:27:04.760 --> 00:27:05.830
 So if you apply that to

00:27:05.830 --> 00:27:07.330
 government, what is the role of

00:27:07.330 --> 00:27:08.200
 government?

00:27:08.200 --> 00:27:09.590
 Well there are two roles,

00:27:09.590 --> 00:27:11.400
 protection and empowerment,

00:27:11.400 --> 00:27:12.640
 just as you would have in a

00:27:12.640 --> 00:27:14.460
 family, the parents

00:27:14.460 --> 00:27:16.350
 have to protect their kids and

00:27:16.350 --> 00:27:18.230
 try to empower them to fulfill

00:27:18.230 --> 00:27:19.760
 themselves in life.

00:27:19.760 --> 00:27:21.320
 In a government, protection is

00:27:21.320 --> 00:27:22.610
 not just military or police

00:27:22.610 --> 00:27:24.360
 protection, it's environmental

00:27:24.360 --> 00:27:26.120
 protection,

00:27:26.120 --> 00:27:27.610
 worker protection, consumer

00:27:27.610 --> 00:27:29.330
 protection, safety nets, social

00:27:29.330 --> 00:27:31.120
 security, presumably healthcare

00:27:31.120 --> 00:27:33.240
 would be part of that.

00:27:33.240 --> 00:27:35.090
 And in empowerment, you build,

00:27:35.090 --> 00:27:37.010
 let's say business, empowerment

00:27:37.010 --> 00:27:38.200
 of both business and

00:27:38.200 --> 00:27:39.520
 individuals,

00:27:39.520 --> 00:27:41.720
 you build roads so businesses

00:27:41.720 --> 00:27:44.000
 can transport goods, you have

00:27:44.000 --> 00:27:46.140
 the government develop the

00:27:46.140 --> 00:27:48.260
 internet and communication

00:27:48.260 --> 00:27:50.650
 systems, the satellite systems,

00:27:50.650 --> 00:27:52.760
 it does education so people can

00:27:52.760 --> 00:27:52.840
 be

00:27:52.840 --> 00:27:54.530
 fulfilled and get jobs and

00:27:54.530 --> 00:27:56.690
 companies can hire educated

00:27:56.690 --> 00:27:58.430
 workers, it supports a banking

00:27:58.430 --> 00:27:58.960
 system

00:27:58.960 --> 00:28:00.550
 so that the people can keep

00:28:00.550 --> 00:28:02.250
 their money in a safe place and

00:28:02.250 --> 00:28:03.920
 get loans and companies can

00:28:03.920 --> 00:28:06.680
 get loans, it supports a court

00:28:06.680 --> 00:28:09.200
 system to adjudicate mostly

00:28:09.200 --> 00:28:12.040
 business cases and it supports

00:28:12.040 --> 00:28:12.040
 the

00:28:12.040 --> 00:28:14.060
 SEC for the stock market, that

00:28:14.060 --> 00:28:15.960
 is so that you have a stock

00:28:15.960 --> 00:28:17.040
 market that you can be

00:28:17.040 --> 00:28:17.960
 reasonably

00:28:17.960 --> 00:28:19.460
 confident in.

00:28:19.460 --> 00:28:20.860
 So the result of that is no

00:28:20.860 --> 00:28:22.550
 business can make any money at

00:28:22.550 --> 00:28:24.320
 all without the empowerment

00:28:24.320 --> 00:28:25.510
 of government and the

00:28:25.510 --> 00:28:27.200
 protection of government.

00:28:27.200 --> 00:28:29.240
 And what taxes are is what you

00:28:29.240 --> 00:28:31.180
 pay to live in a country that

00:28:31.180 --> 00:28:33.600
 has protection and empowerment

00:28:33.600 --> 00:28:35.120
 whereas many countries in the

00:28:35.120 --> 00:28:36.380
 world, most third world

00:28:36.380 --> 00:28:38.000
 countries don't have that.

00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:39.800
 And that's a very simple

00:28:39.800 --> 00:28:42.400
 account of what government is.

00:28:42.400 --> 00:28:44.840
 And then there are other ideas

00:28:44.840 --> 00:28:47.410
 that is in a nurturing parent

00:28:47.410 --> 00:28:49.380
 family, the parents talk

00:28:49.380 --> 00:28:51.360
 openly with their children and

00:28:51.360 --> 00:28:53.020
 respect their kids as well as

00:28:53.020 --> 00:28:55.020
 insist on them being respected

00:28:55.020 --> 00:28:57.400
 and they get their respect from

00:28:57.400 --> 00:28:59.680
 what they do, from their

00:28:59.680 --> 00:29:00.140
 actions.

00:29:00.140 --> 00:29:01.220
 And that's the way that

00:29:01.220 --> 00:29:02.760
 government is supposed to work

00:29:02.760 --> 00:29:04.370
 for a progressive government,

00:29:04.370 --> 00:29:04.660
 it's

00:29:04.660 --> 00:29:06.310
 supposed to be open and honest

00:29:06.310 --> 00:29:07.920
 and the people in government

00:29:07.920 --> 00:29:09.500
 are supposed to do what they

00:29:09.500 --> 00:29:11.040
 say they're going to do and so

00:29:11.040 --> 00:29:12.450
 on and get respect from the

00:29:12.450 --> 00:29:14.200
 population because of that.

00:29:14.200 --> 00:29:15.760
 As a result of these two modes

00:29:15.760 --> 00:29:17.420
 of thought you have totally

00:29:17.420 --> 00:29:18.760
 different ideas about what

00:29:18.760 --> 00:29:20.420
 constitutes freedom, what

00:29:20.420 --> 00:29:22.040
 constitutes equality, what

00:29:22.040 --> 00:29:23.870
 constitutes accountability,

00:29:23.870 --> 00:29:24.600
 completely

00:29:24.600 --> 00:29:25.600
 different.

00:29:25.600 --> 00:29:27.150
 They go in totally different

00:29:27.150 --> 00:29:28.080
 directions.

00:29:28.080 --> 00:29:29.750
 Now and then you have people

00:29:29.750 --> 00:29:31.440
 who are, who call themselves

00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:33.120
 conservatives but love the

00:29:33.120 --> 00:29:36.010
 land, they don't feel nurtured

00:29:36.010 --> 00:29:38.560
 toward the land, toward the

00:29:38.560 --> 00:29:39.500
 earth.

00:29:39.500 --> 00:29:40.650
 There are people who call

00:29:40.650 --> 00:29:42.090
 themselves conservatives but

00:29:42.090 --> 00:29:43.630
 are progressive Christians,

00:29:43.630 --> 00:29:44.180
 believe God

00:29:44.180 --> 00:29:46.080
 is a nurturing parent that we

00:29:46.080 --> 00:29:47.340
 should take care of the poor

00:29:47.340 --> 00:29:49.940
 and heal the sick and so on.

00:29:49.940 --> 00:29:51.460
 You have people who are honest

00:29:51.460 --> 00:29:53.010
 business people who want to be

00:29:53.010 --> 00:29:54.860
 progressive, like progressive

00:29:54.860 --> 00:29:56.520
 business people, they're honest

00:29:56.520 --> 00:29:57.910
, they would never screw their

00:29:57.910 --> 00:30:00.380
 employees, they would never

00:30:00.380 --> 00:30:03.320
 hurt the population and so on.

00:30:03.320 --> 00:30:04.400
 Plenty of people call

00:30:04.400 --> 00:30:05.950
 themselves conservatives and

00:30:05.950 --> 00:30:07.380
 are conservative in certain

00:30:07.380 --> 00:30:07.920
 ways but are

00:30:07.920 --> 00:30:09.960
 progressive in other ways.

00:30:09.960 --> 00:30:13.090
 Now given that, that matters

00:30:13.090 --> 00:30:16.780
 enormously for politics because

00:30:16.780 --> 00:30:19.580
 of, consider the question

00:30:19.580 --> 00:30:22.720
 within progressives.

00:30:22.720 --> 00:30:25.470
 Should a progressive candidate

00:30:25.470 --> 00:30:27.800
 or office holder move to the

00:30:27.800 --> 00:30:28.680
 right?

00:30:28.680 --> 00:30:31.270
 Okay, well, those who say you

00:30:31.270 --> 00:30:33.680
 move to the right assume that

00:30:33.680 --> 00:30:36.300
 there's a linear order from

00:30:36.300 --> 00:30:37.520
 left to right and it's just

00:30:37.520 --> 00:30:38.970
 false, there is no such linear

00:30:38.970 --> 00:30:40.180
 order because you can have

00:30:40.180 --> 00:30:43.400
 this every which way.

00:30:43.400 --> 00:30:45.520
 But what for example the Clint

00:30:45.520 --> 00:30:47.800
ons have usually done was assume

00:30:47.800 --> 00:30:50.140
 a triangulation, they assume

00:30:50.140 --> 00:30:51.680
 that there's a center and they

00:30:51.680 --> 00:30:52.980
 have to move to the right to

00:30:52.980 --> 00:30:54.540
 get there and they will take

00:30:54.540 --> 00:30:56.860
 adopt positions that they

00:30:56.860 --> 00:30:59.100
 consider bipartisan.

00:30:59.100 --> 00:31:00.970
 Bipartisanship means making

00:31:00.970 --> 00:31:02.330
 accommodations with

00:31:02.330 --> 00:31:04.370
 conservatives so that you adopt

00:31:04.370 --> 00:31:04.740
 some

00:31:04.740 --> 00:31:05.740
 of their principles.

00:31:05.740 --> 00:31:08.410
 Some of the votes that Hillary

00:31:08.410 --> 00:31:11.180
 Clinton's made are positively

00:31:11.180 --> 00:31:13.780
 Republican, voted to authorize

00:31:13.780 --> 00:31:15.310
 the war to declare Iran a

00:31:15.310 --> 00:31:17.440
 terrorist state, those kinds of

00:31:17.440 --> 00:31:18.200
 things.

00:31:18.200 --> 00:31:21.190
 And the bankruptcy bill, things

00:31:21.190 --> 00:31:22.400
 like that.

00:31:22.400 --> 00:31:24.730
 Now Obama has, this is just an

00:31:24.730 --> 00:31:27.320
 analysis of the two candidates,

00:31:27.320 --> 00:31:29.460
 but Obama has the opposite

00:31:29.460 --> 00:31:30.460
 view.

00:31:30.460 --> 00:31:31.700
 He understands that

00:31:31.700 --> 00:31:33.830
 conservatives, there are people

00:31:33.830 --> 00:31:35.900
 who are conservative in certain

00:31:35.900 --> 00:31:36.680
 ways

00:31:36.680 --> 00:31:38.840
 and identify themselves that

00:31:38.840 --> 00:31:41.000
 way, have lots of progressive

00:31:41.000 --> 00:31:41.740
 views.

00:31:41.740 --> 00:31:43.380
 So his way of dealing, his

00:31:43.380 --> 00:31:45.330
 notion of bipartisanship is to

00:31:45.330 --> 00:31:47.210
 find out where conservatives

00:31:47.210 --> 00:31:47.900
 have views

00:31:47.900 --> 00:31:49.700
 that agree with them and then

00:31:49.700 --> 00:31:51.340
 to work with them on those.

00:31:51.340 --> 00:31:52.360
 I've seen an absolutely

00:31:52.360 --> 00:31:53.650
 fascinating thing with Obama

00:31:53.650 --> 00:31:54.880
 that there are people that I

00:31:54.880 --> 00:31:55.340
 know

00:31:55.340 --> 00:31:56.180
 who I relate with

00:31:56.180 --> 00:31:57.690
 professionally and get along

00:31:57.690 --> 00:31:59.310
 with, find, think highly of,

00:31:59.310 --> 00:32:00.820
 but who are very

00:32:00.820 --> 00:32:02.290
 right wing, you know, they're

00:32:02.290 --> 00:32:03.820
 Republicans and vote Republican

00:32:03.820 --> 00:32:04.900
 all the time, who say

00:32:04.900 --> 00:32:06.330
 that they might vote for Obama

00:32:06.330 --> 00:32:07.730
 and I'm puzzled by this, why

00:32:07.730 --> 00:32:09.040
 would they vote for him?

00:32:09.040 --> 00:32:10.360
 And so I asked and he said, "Oh

00:32:10.360 --> 00:32:11.490
, well it seems like he has

00:32:11.490 --> 00:32:12.320
 integrity."

00:32:12.320 --> 00:32:13.320
 And that's good.

00:32:13.320 --> 00:32:15.570
 And that's the big thing, right

00:32:15.570 --> 00:32:15.840
?

00:32:15.840 --> 00:32:16.840
 I mean.

00:32:16.840 --> 00:32:17.840
 Yeah.

00:32:17.840 --> 00:32:18.490
 That's exactly what I was

00:32:18.490 --> 00:32:18.840
 coming to.

00:32:18.840 --> 00:32:19.840
 Okay, fair enough.

00:32:19.840 --> 00:32:20.380
 That's what I want to

00:32:20.380 --> 00:32:20.840
 understand.

00:32:20.840 --> 00:32:23.830
 I want to, you know, know how,

00:32:23.830 --> 00:32:25.820
 where we're going.

00:32:25.820 --> 00:32:26.820
 Okay.

00:32:26.820 --> 00:32:29.130
 Well, this is what I learned a

00:32:29.130 --> 00:32:31.360
 couple of years ago when I met

00:32:31.360 --> 00:32:33.540
 Richard Worthlin, who is a

00:32:33.540 --> 00:32:35.540
 legendary figure.

00:32:35.540 --> 00:32:37.390
 He was Ronald Reagan's chief

00:32:37.390 --> 00:32:38.460
 strategist.

00:32:38.460 --> 00:32:39.460
 Oh, right.

00:32:39.460 --> 00:32:40.460
 Sure.

00:32:40.460 --> 00:32:42.140
 And I happened to find myself

00:32:42.140 --> 00:32:43.520
 sitting next to him at a

00:32:43.520 --> 00:32:45.140
 conference and he was just a

00:32:45.140 --> 00:32:48.080
 retired, a lovely gentleman who

00:32:48.080 --> 00:32:50.890
 seemed to, you know, say a lot

00:32:50.890 --> 00:32:52.760
 of sensible things at

00:32:52.760 --> 00:32:54.160
 this conference.

00:32:54.160 --> 00:32:55.520
 So we went off to lunch

00:32:55.520 --> 00:32:57.110
 together and I asked him a

00:32:57.110 --> 00:32:59.070
 simple question, which is, "

00:32:59.070 --> 00:32:59.680
What was

00:32:59.680 --> 00:33:01.410
 your experience with Reagan

00:33:01.410 --> 00:33:02.040
 like?"

00:33:02.040 --> 00:33:03.350
 And he told me a remarkable

00:33:03.350 --> 00:33:03.760
 story.

00:33:03.760 --> 00:33:05.960
 He said, "Look, I was trained

00:33:05.960 --> 00:33:07.880
 at Berkeley and to be a poll

00:33:07.880 --> 00:33:09.760
ster and an economist.

00:33:09.760 --> 00:33:11.460
 And what I learned there was

00:33:11.460 --> 00:33:12.800
 that people vote for a

00:33:12.800 --> 00:33:14.720
 candidate on the basis of their

00:33:14.720 --> 00:33:15.500
 positions

00:33:15.500 --> 00:33:16.820
 on issues.

00:33:16.820 --> 00:33:18.290
 I took my first poll for Reagan

00:33:18.290 --> 00:33:19.820
, found that nobody liked this

00:33:19.820 --> 00:33:21.140
 position on issues, but

00:33:21.140 --> 00:33:22.040
 people wanted to vote for

00:33:22.040 --> 00:33:22.460
 Reagan.

00:33:22.460 --> 00:33:23.910
 And he said, "I didn't

00:33:23.910 --> 00:33:25.260
 understand this.

00:33:25.260 --> 00:33:26.260
 Here I was chief strategist.

00:33:26.260 --> 00:33:27.820
 I didn't know why people wanted

00:33:27.820 --> 00:33:29.340
 to vote for my candidate."

00:33:29.340 --> 00:33:31.030
 So I did more polls and focus

00:33:31.030 --> 00:33:32.700
 groups and interviews.

00:33:32.700 --> 00:33:33.700
 And here's what I found.

00:33:33.700 --> 00:33:35.080
 I found that Reagan talked

00:33:35.080 --> 00:33:36.590
 about values and issues would

00:33:36.590 --> 00:33:38.180
 illustrate values, but he's

00:33:38.180 --> 00:33:40.420
 mainly talking about values,

00:33:40.420 --> 00:33:42.770
 and people cared about values,

00:33:42.770 --> 00:33:44.590
 that Reagan connected with

00:33:44.590 --> 00:33:45.720
 people.

00:33:45.720 --> 00:33:46.940
 People felt a genuine

00:33:46.940 --> 00:33:48.770
 connection with them, and they

00:33:48.770 --> 00:33:50.520
 felt he had integrity, that he

00:33:50.520 --> 00:33:50.920
 told

00:33:50.920 --> 00:33:51.880
 the truth, that he was

00:33:51.880 --> 00:33:53.220
 authentic, that he said what he

00:33:53.220 --> 00:33:53.800
 believed.

00:33:53.800 --> 00:33:55.430
 And if he had values and said

00:33:55.430 --> 00:33:57.060
 what he believed, you could

00:33:57.060 --> 00:33:57.920
 trust him.

00:33:57.920 --> 00:33:59.320
 You may not agree with him, but

00:33:59.320 --> 00:34:00.560
 you knew where he stood.

00:34:00.560 --> 00:34:02.440
 And that was what was important

00:34:02.440 --> 00:34:02.600
.

00:34:02.600 --> 00:34:03.600
 That was what was important.

00:34:03.600 --> 00:34:04.600
 For which model?

00:34:04.600 --> 00:34:05.600
 For the nurturing?

00:34:05.600 --> 00:34:06.600
 It didn't matter.

00:34:06.600 --> 00:34:07.600
 It didn't matter.

00:34:07.600 --> 00:34:09.900
 It worked for both models.

00:34:09.900 --> 00:34:12.580
 It worked for both models.

00:34:12.580 --> 00:34:13.580
 That's what's important.

00:34:13.580 --> 00:34:14.580
 It doesn't matter.

00:34:14.580 --> 00:34:15.580
 It's neutral.

00:34:15.580 --> 00:34:17.080
 Everybody buys the integrity,

00:34:17.080 --> 00:34:18.500
 trust, straight shooter.

00:34:18.500 --> 00:34:19.500
 You got it.

00:34:19.500 --> 00:34:20.640
 I'd like to have a beer with

00:34:20.640 --> 00:34:21.140
 the guy.

00:34:21.140 --> 00:34:22.140
 Is that the...

00:34:22.140 --> 00:34:23.140
 Well, the beer with the guy...

00:34:23.140 --> 00:34:23.740
 Because that was George Bush's

00:34:23.740 --> 00:34:24.140
 thing, right?

00:34:24.140 --> 00:34:25.560
 Yeah, well, it was not just...

00:34:25.560 --> 00:34:26.560
 That was different.

00:34:26.560 --> 00:34:27.630
 Bush didn't get as many votes

00:34:27.630 --> 00:34:28.300
 as Reagan did.

00:34:28.300 --> 00:34:29.300
 Right.

00:34:29.300 --> 00:34:30.300
 Exactly.

00:34:30.300 --> 00:34:31.300
 That was more...

00:34:31.300 --> 00:34:32.300
 That was more he's like me.

00:34:32.300 --> 00:34:33.500
 See, there's another part of it

00:34:33.500 --> 00:34:34.420
, which is identity.

00:34:34.420 --> 00:34:35.420
 Yeah.

00:34:35.420 --> 00:34:36.420
 See, identity is the next part.

00:34:36.420 --> 00:34:37.700
 You identify with the person.

00:34:37.700 --> 00:34:39.530
 They would identify with Bush

00:34:39.530 --> 00:34:40.460
 in that way.

00:34:40.460 --> 00:34:41.460
 But then...

00:34:41.460 --> 00:34:42.460
 So what does it...

00:34:42.460 --> 00:34:43.460
 What do they get from Obama?

00:34:43.460 --> 00:34:44.140
 Do they identify with the

00:34:44.140 --> 00:34:44.460
 person?

00:34:44.460 --> 00:34:45.460
 All of those things.

00:34:45.460 --> 00:34:46.460
 All of them.

00:34:46.460 --> 00:34:47.460
 All of them.

00:34:47.460 --> 00:34:50.090
 What they get is a sense of

00:34:50.090 --> 00:34:53.300
 trust, a sense of values, a

00:34:53.300 --> 00:34:56.500
 sense of authenticity, and so

00:34:56.500 --> 00:34:57.500
 on.

00:34:57.500 --> 00:34:58.500
 But there's another very...

00:34:58.500 --> 00:34:59.500
 I want to ask you also about

00:34:59.500 --> 00:35:00.380
 Kerry, to...

00:35:00.380 --> 00:35:01.380
 I'll get...

00:35:01.380 --> 00:35:02.380
 Okay.

00:35:02.380 --> 00:35:04.270
 But there's another very

00:35:04.270 --> 00:35:06.620
 important piece, which has to

00:35:06.620 --> 00:35:08.220
 do with emotions.

00:35:08.220 --> 00:35:09.500
 We know from the study of the

00:35:09.500 --> 00:35:10.630
 brain that there are two

00:35:10.630 --> 00:35:12.270
 different emotional pathways, a

00:35:12.270 --> 00:35:12.740
 positive

00:35:12.740 --> 00:35:15.010
 and a negative one, dopamine

00:35:15.010 --> 00:35:17.450
 and norepinephrine pathways,

00:35:17.450 --> 00:35:19.360
 positive for feelings of

00:35:19.360 --> 00:35:20.580
 satisfaction

00:35:20.580 --> 00:35:22.730
 and hope and so on, and

00:35:22.730 --> 00:35:25.720
 happiness, and others, the

00:35:25.720 --> 00:35:28.410
 negative pathway for fear,

00:35:28.410 --> 00:35:29.540
 anxiety and

00:35:29.540 --> 00:35:31.260
 anger.

00:35:31.260 --> 00:35:35.000
 And the question, it turns out,

00:35:35.000 --> 00:35:38.440
 that the fear pathway activates

00:35:38.440 --> 00:35:41.260
 a strict father model.

00:35:41.260 --> 00:35:42.900
 They want people on protection

00:35:42.900 --> 00:35:43.580
 and so on.

00:35:43.580 --> 00:35:46.210
 That the satisfaction/happiness

00:35:46.210 --> 00:35:48.570
 pathway activates a nurturing

00:35:48.570 --> 00:35:49.340
 model.

00:35:49.340 --> 00:35:51.060
 So that's another very much

00:35:51.060 --> 00:35:51.900
 part of it.

00:35:51.900 --> 00:35:54.940
 Obama makes people feel good.

00:35:54.940 --> 00:35:56.660
 He activates the positive

00:35:56.660 --> 00:35:58.300
 pathway, not the negative

00:35:58.300 --> 00:35:59.100
 pathway.

00:35:59.100 --> 00:36:00.510
 And Bush was activating the

00:36:00.510 --> 00:36:02.310
 negative pathway for fear to

00:36:02.310 --> 00:36:03.410
 activate the strict father

00:36:03.410 --> 00:36:03.980
 model.

00:36:03.980 --> 00:36:06.010
 Now, how does this have to do

00:36:06.010 --> 00:36:07.220
 with framing?

00:36:07.220 --> 00:36:09.220
 If you have, and by the way,

00:36:09.220 --> 00:36:11.380
 your brain accommodates both of

00:36:11.380 --> 00:36:13.510
 these at once because it was

00:36:13.510 --> 00:36:13.900
 called

00:36:13.900 --> 00:36:15.820
 neural inhibition.

00:36:15.820 --> 00:36:17.770
 That is, mutual inhibition says

00:36:17.770 --> 00:36:19.190
 if you have two things that

00:36:19.190 --> 00:36:20.980
 contradict each other, the

00:36:20.980 --> 00:36:22.900
 activation of one deactivates

00:36:22.900 --> 00:36:25.100
 the other, inhibits the other.

00:36:25.100 --> 00:36:26.680
 But you may not notice that you

00:36:26.680 --> 00:36:28.180
're going back and forth.

00:36:28.180 --> 00:36:29.280
 You may just think that's who

00:36:29.280 --> 00:36:29.740
 you are.

00:36:29.740 --> 00:36:31.260
 You don't notice these things.

00:36:31.260 --> 00:36:34.060
 It's just a neural fact.

00:36:34.060 --> 00:36:35.460
 And so that if you are

00:36:35.460 --> 00:36:37.880
 activating strict father model,

00:36:37.880 --> 00:36:39.900
 then certain ideas are more

00:36:39.900 --> 00:36:40.540
 natural,

00:36:40.540 --> 00:36:43.160
 like not, you know, insisting

00:36:43.160 --> 00:36:45.480
 on victory, insisting on

00:36:45.480 --> 00:36:46.420
 winning.

00:36:46.420 --> 00:36:48.140
 Competition is taken as natural

00:36:48.140 --> 00:36:49.730
 and you're supposed to win them

00:36:49.730 --> 00:36:49.980
.

00:36:49.980 --> 00:36:53.330
 The market is going to be seen

00:36:53.330 --> 00:36:56.380
 as natural and moral and the

00:36:56.380 --> 00:36:58.780
 decider and so on.

00:36:58.780 --> 00:37:00.390
 That is, a lot of views will

00:37:00.390 --> 00:37:02.150
 come together and that's why

00:37:02.150 --> 00:37:03.620
 that happens that way.

00:37:03.620 --> 00:37:05.550
 And when that happens that way,

00:37:05.550 --> 00:37:07.350
 then you can frame an argument

00:37:07.350 --> 00:37:08.380
 more easily.

00:37:08.380 --> 00:37:10.160
 You can use language that ev

00:37:10.160 --> 00:37:11.460
okes that model.

00:37:11.460 --> 00:37:14.130
 So when they say tax relief,

00:37:14.130 --> 00:37:16.570
 which then has the frame of

00:37:16.570 --> 00:37:19.460
 relief with an affliction and

00:37:19.460 --> 00:37:21.470
 an afflicted party, a hero

00:37:21.470 --> 00:37:23.550
 takes it away and so on, then

00:37:23.550 --> 00:37:25.550
 you have taxation as an affl

00:37:25.550 --> 00:37:26.260
iction

00:37:26.260 --> 00:37:29.360
 that fits the strict father

00:37:29.360 --> 00:37:31.940
 model of the market.

00:37:31.940 --> 00:37:33.400
 It doesn't fit a nurtured

00:37:33.400 --> 00:37:35.110
 parent model of the market,

00:37:35.110 --> 00:37:36.820
 which says a market is there

00:37:36.820 --> 00:37:38.420
 to help people.

00:37:38.420 --> 00:37:40.030
 A market is there to help

00:37:40.030 --> 00:37:42.020
 people and regulation is part

00:37:42.020 --> 00:37:43.780
 of the definition of what a

00:37:43.780 --> 00:37:44.300
 market

00:37:44.300 --> 00:37:46.710
 is to guarantee that it will

00:37:46.710 --> 00:37:48.500
 help and not harm.

00:37:48.500 --> 00:37:50.940
 Very, very different idea about

00:37:50.940 --> 00:37:53.270
 what the market is in these two

00:37:53.270 --> 00:37:54.140
 accounts.

00:37:54.140 --> 00:37:55.710
 Now what the conservatives have

00:37:55.710 --> 00:37:57.320
 been doing for the last 35 to

00:37:57.320 --> 00:37:58.740
 40 years through their

00:37:58.740 --> 00:38:00.540
 think tanks and through their

00:38:00.540 --> 00:38:02.460
 communication system, which is

00:38:02.460 --> 00:38:04.140
 very elaborate, they have

00:38:04.140 --> 00:38:05.960
 hundreds of millions of dollars

00:38:05.960 --> 00:38:07.520
 a year put into these things,

00:38:07.520 --> 00:38:09.260
 is getting those deep ideas

00:38:09.260 --> 00:38:11.190
 out there, getting the strict

00:38:11.190 --> 00:38:13.130
 father mode of thought into the

00:38:13.130 --> 00:38:14.780
 public discourse and getting

00:38:14.780 --> 00:38:17.130
 language out there that evokes

00:38:17.130 --> 00:38:19.360
 it so that it's easier to evoke

00:38:19.360 --> 00:38:19.920
 it.

00:38:19.920 --> 00:38:22.000
 And progressives have ignored

00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:22.420
 it.

00:38:22.420 --> 00:38:23.620
 Now this is what I call...

00:38:23.620 --> 00:38:24.930
 What is it that they've ignored

00:38:24.930 --> 00:38:25.020
?

00:38:25.020 --> 00:38:27.310
 They've ignored getting their

00:38:27.310 --> 00:38:29.300
 ideas out into public.

00:38:29.300 --> 00:38:32.900
 The idea that morality is about

00:38:32.900 --> 00:38:36.660
 empathy and responsibility.

00:38:36.660 --> 00:38:38.380
 The idea that government is

00:38:38.380 --> 00:38:39.640
 about protection and

00:38:39.640 --> 00:38:40.700
 empowerment.

00:38:40.700 --> 00:38:41.680
 They have not gotten those

00:38:41.680 --> 00:38:42.420
 ideas out there.

00:38:42.420 --> 00:38:44.350
 The idea that taxation is what

00:38:44.350 --> 00:38:46.280
 you pay to have protection and

00:38:46.280 --> 00:38:48.020
 empowerment and for business

00:38:48.020 --> 00:38:51.260
 to make any money at all.

00:38:51.260 --> 00:38:53.070
 These ideas are not gotten out

00:38:53.070 --> 00:38:53.620
 there.

00:38:53.620 --> 00:38:55.120
 And there are many, many others

00:38:55.120 --> 00:38:55.780
 like them.

00:38:55.780 --> 00:38:57.160
 And if those ideas are not in

00:38:57.160 --> 00:38:58.840
 the public discourse, then it's

00:38:58.840 --> 00:39:00.400
 easy to get other ideas out

00:39:00.400 --> 00:39:01.340
 there.

00:39:01.340 --> 00:39:03.120
 Now there's another very

00:39:03.120 --> 00:39:05.360
 important piece to this puzzle

00:39:05.360 --> 00:39:07.360
 that then that has to do with

00:39:07.360 --> 00:39:10.140
 a folk theory of what reason is

00:39:10.140 --> 00:39:10.260
.

00:39:10.260 --> 00:39:11.590
 And this is a folk theory that

00:39:11.590 --> 00:39:12.700
 goes back to at least the

00:39:12.700 --> 00:39:13.700
 Enlightenment.

00:39:13.700 --> 00:39:15.390
 It says that reason has the

00:39:15.390 --> 00:39:17.120
 following properties.

00:39:17.120 --> 00:39:18.890
 That it is conscious, that you

00:39:18.890 --> 00:39:20.760
 know what you're thinking, that

00:39:20.760 --> 00:39:22.460
 it is literal, it can fit the

00:39:22.460 --> 00:39:23.880
 world, that you can reason

00:39:23.880 --> 00:39:25.530
 about the world, your concepts

00:39:25.530 --> 00:39:27.140
 fit it, that it's logical, that

00:39:27.140 --> 00:39:28.750
 being rational is to be logical

00:39:28.750 --> 00:39:30.410
, that it's unemotional, that

00:39:30.410 --> 00:39:31.700
 emotion gets in the way

00:39:31.700 --> 00:39:33.260
 of reason, that it's disembod

00:39:33.260 --> 00:39:34.770
ied, that it's separate from

00:39:34.770 --> 00:39:36.180
 perception and action.

00:39:36.180 --> 00:39:38.520
 It's its own thing.

00:39:38.520 --> 00:39:39.720
 That it's universal, that

00:39:39.720 --> 00:39:41.190
 everybody reasons the same way,

00:39:41.190 --> 00:39:42.500
 you're all human beings, so

00:39:42.500 --> 00:39:44.760
 we all think the same way with

00:39:44.760 --> 00:39:46.900
 the same idea of reason.

00:39:46.900 --> 00:39:47.980
 And it's based on self-interest

00:39:47.980 --> 00:39:48.600
, it's...

00:39:48.600 --> 00:39:49.660
 And this is the progressive

00:39:49.660 --> 00:39:50.340
 view, right?

00:39:50.340 --> 00:39:51.340
 This is...

00:39:51.340 --> 00:39:52.590
 Basically, if we give you all

00:39:52.590 --> 00:39:53.930
 the facts, you'll arrive at the

00:39:53.930 --> 00:39:54.860
 correct decision.

00:39:54.860 --> 00:39:57.210
 It's what I'll call the neol

00:39:57.210 --> 00:39:58.600
iberal view.

00:39:58.600 --> 00:40:00.050
 And some progressives have it

00:40:00.050 --> 00:40:01.660
 and some progressives don't.

00:40:01.660 --> 00:40:02.660
 But it's wrong.

00:40:02.660 --> 00:40:05.100
 It's desperately wrong, right?

00:40:05.100 --> 00:40:06.610
 Every part of it has been shown

00:40:06.610 --> 00:40:07.810
 to be false by cognitive

00:40:07.810 --> 00:40:08.500
 science.

00:40:08.500 --> 00:40:10.460
 Every single part of it.

00:40:10.460 --> 00:40:12.780
 And yet, the neoliberals use

00:40:12.780 --> 00:40:15.360
 defined policy as doing that.

00:40:15.360 --> 00:40:16.410
 You can see it in the Puzz

00:40:16.410 --> 00:40:17.750
lement of the Hillary Clinton

00:40:17.750 --> 00:40:18.730
 campaign, and she has

00:40:18.730 --> 00:40:20.000
 approached it

00:40:20.000 --> 00:40:21.300
 as all I have to do is show you

00:40:21.300 --> 00:40:22.470
 how I follow these things

00:40:22.470 --> 00:40:23.940
 through, and I'm going to do

00:40:23.940 --> 00:40:25.610
 all the correct things, and

00:40:25.610 --> 00:40:26.900
 ready on day one, and all this,

00:40:26.900 --> 00:40:28.660
 and then you just vote for me,

00:40:28.660 --> 00:40:29.660
 right?

00:40:29.660 --> 00:40:30.290
 And it doesn't seem to be

00:40:30.290 --> 00:40:30.660
 working.

00:40:30.660 --> 00:40:31.850
 It's not working, because she

00:40:31.850 --> 00:40:33.090
 believes that, she believes in

00:40:33.090 --> 00:40:34.100
 the neoliberal view.

00:40:34.100 --> 00:40:35.640
 Well, she seems to be going

00:40:35.640 --> 00:40:36.940
 back and forth, too.

00:40:36.940 --> 00:40:39.120
 Some moments, she understands

00:40:39.120 --> 00:40:41.070
 that it's her, she connects

00:40:41.070 --> 00:40:42.790
 with people the way Obama

00:40:42.790 --> 00:40:43.140
 connects

00:40:43.140 --> 00:40:44.620
 with people at times.

00:40:44.620 --> 00:40:45.620
 At times.

00:40:45.620 --> 00:40:46.620
 At times.

00:40:46.620 --> 00:40:47.780
 It's intended to be when she

00:40:47.780 --> 00:40:49.020
 does well, too, right?

00:40:49.020 --> 00:40:50.780
 That's exactly right.

00:40:50.780 --> 00:40:52.520
 But she believes, her active

00:40:52.520 --> 00:40:54.400
 belief, her conscious belief,

00:40:54.400 --> 00:40:56.010
 is that this is how it should

00:40:56.010 --> 00:40:56.380
 go,

00:40:56.380 --> 00:40:58.300
 and that has a consequence.

00:40:58.300 --> 00:41:00.190
 It says, the neoliberal view

00:41:00.190 --> 00:41:02.090
 says, you should do interest

00:41:02.090 --> 00:41:04.140
 group politics, that you find

00:41:04.140 --> 00:41:05.730
 a group of people whose

00:41:05.730 --> 00:41:07.800
 interests are not being served,

00:41:07.800 --> 00:41:09.820
 and then you have a government

00:41:09.820 --> 00:41:11.750
 program to serve them, you know

00:41:11.750 --> 00:41:11.840
?

00:41:11.840 --> 00:41:12.840
 And you get their votes.

00:41:12.840 --> 00:41:13.570
 And you get the, and the

00:41:13.570 --> 00:41:14.380
 assumption is you will get

00:41:14.380 --> 00:41:15.280
 their votes, which of course

00:41:15.280 --> 00:41:15.500
 you

00:41:15.500 --> 00:41:16.500
 won't.

00:41:16.500 --> 00:41:17.500
 But, but the assumption.

00:41:17.500 --> 00:41:18.650
 That's what the Republicans

00:41:18.650 --> 00:41:19.780
 have proven over America.

00:41:19.780 --> 00:41:20.780
 They prove it.

00:41:20.780 --> 00:41:21.660
 You don't need to do anything

00:41:21.660 --> 00:41:22.780
 for anybody to get their votes.

00:41:22.780 --> 00:41:23.780
 You just need to make them feel

00:41:23.780 --> 00:41:24.780
 good about their country.

00:41:24.780 --> 00:41:26.200
 No, you know, they need, you

00:41:26.200 --> 00:41:27.460
 need to activate the strict

00:41:27.460 --> 00:41:28.660
 father model in them.

00:41:28.660 --> 00:41:29.660
 Right, right.

00:41:29.660 --> 00:41:30.470
 If you activate their strict,

00:41:30.470 --> 00:41:31.260
 their strict father model.

00:41:31.260 --> 00:41:32.420
 Now Reagan was a Republican,

00:41:32.420 --> 00:41:33.860
 too, though, he activated some

00:41:33.860 --> 00:41:35.020
 other models, too, right?

00:41:35.020 --> 00:41:36.720
 He's activated, well, he

00:41:36.720 --> 00:41:38.450
 activated, basically, a strict

00:41:38.450 --> 00:41:40.140
 father model in lots of, well,

00:41:40.140 --> 00:41:40.140
 you

00:41:40.140 --> 00:41:41.660
 said he activated both, right?

00:41:41.660 --> 00:41:42.660
 No, no.

00:41:42.660 --> 00:41:44.060
 I didn't say activated both.

00:41:44.060 --> 00:41:45.790
 The idea is he would appeal to

00:41:45.790 --> 00:41:46.300
 both.

00:41:46.300 --> 00:41:47.300
 Right.

00:41:47.300 --> 00:41:48.300
 I see what you're saying.

00:41:48.300 --> 00:41:49.060
 Even if they disagreed with

00:41:49.060 --> 00:41:49.300
 them.

00:41:49.300 --> 00:41:49.750
 And that's why he got

00:41:49.750 --> 00:41:50.300
 Democratic votes.

00:41:50.300 --> 00:41:51.300
 Yeah.

00:41:51.300 --> 00:41:53.060
 So he activated the strict

00:41:53.060 --> 00:41:55.310
 father model in poor Democrats,

00:41:55.310 --> 00:41:57.180
 who very, you know, many

00:41:57.180 --> 00:41:57.580
 working

00:41:57.580 --> 00:41:58.580
 class Democrats.

00:41:58.580 --> 00:42:00.790
 So the Obama act, is he a

00:42:00.790 --> 00:42:02.540
 strict father?

00:42:02.540 --> 00:42:03.540
 No.

00:42:03.540 --> 00:42:04.890
 He hasn't shown any of that yet

00:42:04.890 --> 00:42:05.060
.

00:42:05.060 --> 00:42:06.700
 Or do you think he will?

00:42:06.700 --> 00:42:08.060
 He shows some of it when he

00:42:08.060 --> 00:42:09.340
 says, "I will do what is

00:42:09.340 --> 00:42:11.220
 necessary to defend America."

00:42:11.220 --> 00:42:13.250
 Didn't he do it when he said, "

00:42:13.250 --> 00:42:15.280
This is silly season," in the

00:42:15.280 --> 00:42:17.380
 last debate with Hillary?

00:42:17.380 --> 00:42:20.100
 Hillary was doing all the, uh,

00:42:20.100 --> 00:42:21.020
 uh, yeah.

00:42:21.020 --> 00:42:22.020
 That's right.

00:42:22.020 --> 00:42:23.020
 Plagiarism thing.

00:42:23.020 --> 00:42:24.000
 And he goes, "Oh, this is silly

00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:24.020
."

00:42:24.020 --> 00:42:25.020
 He said it twice.

00:42:25.020 --> 00:42:26.020
 That's right.

00:42:26.020 --> 00:42:26.640
 Things like that don't happen

00:42:26.640 --> 00:42:27.020
 by accident.

00:42:27.020 --> 00:42:28.020
 Right.

00:42:28.020 --> 00:42:29.020
 Exactly.

00:42:29.020 --> 00:42:30.890
 But that is, what he's doing

00:42:30.890 --> 00:42:32.860
 there is framing Hillary, who

00:42:32.860 --> 00:42:34.900
 is misrationalism as silly,

00:42:34.900 --> 00:42:35.740
 right?

00:42:35.740 --> 00:42:37.080
 It's exactly what she doesn't

00:42:37.080 --> 00:42:37.660
 want to be.

00:42:37.660 --> 00:42:38.410
 Exactly what she doesn't want

00:42:38.410 --> 00:42:38.660
 to be.

00:42:38.660 --> 00:42:40.270
 He's even, at points, implied

00:42:40.270 --> 00:42:41.670
 that she gets emotional and

00:42:41.670 --> 00:42:43.140
 then she lashes out when she

00:42:43.140 --> 00:42:44.140
 does that.

00:42:44.140 --> 00:42:45.200
 People are giving him a lot of

00:42:45.200 --> 00:42:45.900
 heat for that.

00:42:45.900 --> 00:42:46.900
 Right.

00:42:46.900 --> 00:42:47.900
 He knows what he's doing.

00:42:47.900 --> 00:42:48.900
 Do you think?

00:42:48.900 --> 00:42:49.900
 Absolutely.

00:42:49.900 --> 00:42:51.490
 That goes against everything

00:42:51.490 --> 00:42:53.180
 she's saying about herself.

00:42:53.180 --> 00:42:54.180
 Right.

00:42:54.180 --> 00:42:58.020
 So that's why he does it?

00:42:58.020 --> 00:42:58.880
 It's one of the reasons he does

00:42:58.880 --> 00:42:59.020
 it.

00:42:59.020 --> 00:43:00.020
 Why does he do it?

00:43:00.020 --> 00:43:01.020
 Explain it.

00:43:01.020 --> 00:43:03.100
 Well, you see, if she, if she

00:43:03.100 --> 00:43:05.180
 is the model of rationality and

00:43:05.180 --> 00:43:07.160
 of policy expertise, which

00:43:07.160 --> 00:43:08.830
 means a rational actor model in

00:43:08.830 --> 00:43:10.480
 international relations and

00:43:10.480 --> 00:43:11.740
 elsewhere, she wouldn't be

00:43:11.740 --> 00:43:12.020
 getting

00:43:12.020 --> 00:43:13.020
 emotional, right?

00:43:13.020 --> 00:43:13.950
 She wouldn't be getting

00:43:13.950 --> 00:43:14.860
 emotional about it.

00:43:14.860 --> 00:43:15.860
 Right?

00:43:15.860 --> 00:43:16.860
 But she wasn't, actually.

00:43:16.860 --> 00:43:18.990
 When he said that, that wasn't

00:43:18.990 --> 00:43:20.620
 what was happening.

00:43:20.620 --> 00:43:21.620
 But she has been.

00:43:21.620 --> 00:43:22.620
 In many cases.

00:43:22.620 --> 00:43:24.170
 I mean, if you looked at the,

00:43:24.170 --> 00:43:25.630
 you know, many parts of that

00:43:25.630 --> 00:43:27.140
 last debate where she would

00:43:27.140 --> 00:43:28.770
 cut him off and insist on

00:43:28.770 --> 00:43:30.920
 talking about, you know, that

00:43:30.920 --> 00:43:33.220
 he didn't have a universal plan

00:43:33.220 --> 00:43:34.570
 and she got very excited about

00:43:34.570 --> 00:43:34.980
 that.

00:43:34.980 --> 00:43:35.950
 So that was really Hillary

00:43:35.950 --> 00:43:36.780
 right there, huh?

00:43:36.780 --> 00:43:38.060
 That's really, that's, well, it

00:43:38.060 --> 00:43:38.820
's part of Hillary.

00:43:38.820 --> 00:43:40.420
 Hillary is a very complicated

00:43:40.420 --> 00:43:41.940
 and interesting person.

00:43:41.940 --> 00:43:43.210
 Personally, I find her very

00:43:43.210 --> 00:43:44.620
 warm when she's not, when she's

00:43:44.620 --> 00:43:45.900
, when you're talking to her

00:43:45.900 --> 00:43:48.430
 one-on-one, you know, in a,

00:43:48.430 --> 00:43:50.600
 without any press or aides

00:43:50.600 --> 00:43:53.300
 around and it's not a contested

00:43:53.300 --> 00:43:53.620
 issue

00:43:53.620 --> 00:43:55.300
 and you're not trying to argue

00:43:55.300 --> 00:43:56.060
 with her.

00:43:56.060 --> 00:43:57.420
 Just talking with her, she's a

00:43:57.420 --> 00:43:59.060
 very warm person, personally.

00:43:59.060 --> 00:44:00.880
 But she feels she has to come

00:44:00.880 --> 00:44:02.940
 off as strong and competent and

00:44:02.940 --> 00:44:04.900
, and rational in this way.

00:44:04.900 --> 00:44:06.490
 And she really does believe in

00:44:06.490 --> 00:44:08.050
 interest group politics and she

00:44:08.050 --> 00:44:09.420
 really does believe in this

00:44:09.420 --> 00:44:11.470
 rational actor model of, and

00:44:11.470 --> 00:44:13.450
 she believes in incremental

00:44:13.450 --> 00:44:14.580
 government.

00:44:14.580 --> 00:44:16.500
 And there are various ways in

00:44:16.500 --> 00:44:18.410
 which Obama has the opposite

00:44:18.410 --> 00:44:19.080
 views.

00:44:19.080 --> 00:44:21.170
 As Obama generally thinks in

00:44:21.170 --> 00:44:23.370
 terms of his experiences as a

00:44:23.370 --> 00:44:25.380
 community organizer, why

00:44:25.380 --> 00:44:27.060
 does he refer to that?

00:44:27.060 --> 00:44:28.070
 Because he's interested in

00:44:28.070 --> 00:44:28.540
 empathy.

00:44:28.540 --> 00:44:30.120
 He talks about the empathy

00:44:30.120 --> 00:44:30.900
 deficit.

00:44:30.900 --> 00:44:32.390
 And so he's interested in

00:44:32.390 --> 00:44:34.170
 having the government do what

00:44:34.170 --> 00:44:35.970
 will actually help people in

00:44:35.970 --> 00:44:37.180
 the streets

00:44:37.180 --> 00:44:38.950
 rather than do interest group

00:44:38.950 --> 00:44:39.780
 politics.

00:44:39.780 --> 00:44:41.310
 And interest group politics

00:44:41.310 --> 00:44:42.820
 tends to be incremental.

00:44:42.820 --> 00:44:44.430
 A little thing here, a little

00:44:44.430 --> 00:44:46.100
 thing there, and it doesn't

00:44:46.100 --> 00:44:47.420
 tend to, tend to add up to

00:44:47.420 --> 00:44:48.420
 much.

00:44:48.420 --> 00:44:50.170
 And he wants to do major things

00:44:50.170 --> 00:44:51.860
 that will really help lots of

00:44:51.860 --> 00:44:52.540
 people.

00:44:52.540 --> 00:44:54.100
 And those are very, very

00:44:54.100 --> 00:44:56.050
 different ideas about how to

00:44:56.050 --> 00:44:56.620
 govern.

00:44:56.620 --> 00:44:59.030
 Their foreign policy views are

00:44:59.030 --> 00:45:00.400
 very different.

00:45:00.400 --> 00:45:02.220
 She has the, you know, a

00:45:02.220 --> 00:45:04.430
 typical rational actor model

00:45:04.430 --> 00:45:06.530
 view of the world, that is,

00:45:06.530 --> 00:45:07.180
 there's

00:45:07.180 --> 00:45:09.400
 a national interest, which is

00:45:09.400 --> 00:45:11.680
 basically economically the GDP,

00:45:11.680 --> 00:45:13.990
 militarily military strength,

00:45:13.990 --> 00:45:14.300
 and

00:45:14.300 --> 00:45:16.500
 then political influence.

00:45:16.500 --> 00:45:18.190
 And it's, and then every

00:45:18.190 --> 00:45:20.280
 country assumes, assumed to

00:45:20.280 --> 00:45:22.140
 have the same rational actor

00:45:22.140 --> 00:45:22.780
 model.

00:45:22.780 --> 00:45:24.390
 And they're all trying to get

00:45:24.390 --> 00:45:26.290
 to maximize their self-interest

00:45:26.290 --> 00:45:26.580
.

00:45:26.580 --> 00:45:28.540
 And that if everybody maximizes

00:45:28.540 --> 00:45:30.640
 their self-interest, that's the

00:45:30.640 --> 00:45:31.900
 best situation.

00:45:31.900 --> 00:45:33.300
 So we should be out there maxim

00:45:33.300 --> 00:45:34.740
izing ours and seeing that they

00:45:34.740 --> 00:45:36.060
're maximizing theirs.

00:45:36.060 --> 00:45:38.030
 And that's, foreign policy at

00:45:38.030 --> 00:45:39.700
 the level of the state.

00:45:39.700 --> 00:45:41.060
 Obama looks at the level of the

00:45:41.060 --> 00:45:41.700
 person.

00:45:41.700 --> 00:45:43.060
 He talks of people who are poor

00:45:43.060 --> 00:45:44.520
 around the world, people are un

00:45:44.520 --> 00:45:45.920
educated around the world,

00:45:45.920 --> 00:45:47.560
 people who don't have water

00:45:47.560 --> 00:45:49.500
 around the world, and so on.

00:45:49.500 --> 00:45:50.850
 He's thinking about other

00:45:50.850 --> 00:45:52.440
 countries in terms of people,

00:45:52.440 --> 00:45:53.220
 not states.

00:45:53.220 --> 00:45:54.710
 So they're thinking about

00:45:54.710 --> 00:45:56.330
 foreign policy in opposite ways

00:45:56.330 --> 00:45:58.220
, and they're thinking about

00:45:58.220 --> 00:45:59.620
 governing in opposite ways.

00:45:59.620 --> 00:46:00.940
 Yeah, I think that's so much

00:46:00.940 --> 00:46:02.450
 more intelligent to approach it

00:46:02.450 --> 00:46:03.820
 that way, or brought Obama

00:46:03.820 --> 00:46:04.820
 away.

00:46:04.820 --> 00:46:06.270
 And if we did approach it that

00:46:06.270 --> 00:46:07.670
 way, we would be concerned

00:46:07.670 --> 00:46:09.300
 about how many people are dying

00:46:09.300 --> 00:46:10.690
 in Iraq, not just our own

00:46:10.690 --> 00:46:12.030
 people, but we would be

00:46:12.030 --> 00:46:13.520
 thinking, not just from a

00:46:13.520 --> 00:46:14.860
 pragmatic standpoint

00:46:14.860 --> 00:46:16.670
 that these people are all going

00:46:16.670 --> 00:46:18.540
 to hate us, that's pragmatic.

00:46:18.540 --> 00:46:20.000
 Their relatives who survive are

00:46:20.000 --> 00:46:21.290
 not going to be happy with us

00:46:21.290 --> 00:46:22.340
 for, that's not even the

00:46:22.340 --> 00:46:23.340
 reason.

00:46:23.340 --> 00:46:24.450
 It's just bad karma to kill

00:46:24.450 --> 00:46:25.660
 that many people, it's not a

00:46:25.660 --> 00:46:26.580
 good thing to do.

00:46:26.580 --> 00:46:28.340
 And it's not what the United

00:46:28.340 --> 00:46:30.090
 States does, and if a lot of

00:46:30.090 --> 00:46:32.020
 people were focused on that,

00:46:32.020 --> 00:46:33.670
 they wouldn't want us to do

00:46:33.670 --> 00:46:34.220
 that.

00:46:34.220 --> 00:46:36.040
 That's another part of this,

00:46:36.040 --> 00:46:38.260
 where there's a big difference.

00:46:38.260 --> 00:46:39.560
 Hillary calls herself a

00:46:39.560 --> 00:46:41.170
 progressive, Obama doesn't

00:46:41.170 --> 00:46:42.820
 really call himself anything

00:46:42.820 --> 00:46:43.060
 but

00:46:43.060 --> 00:46:44.060
 an American.

00:46:44.060 --> 00:46:45.470
 Right, and that's beautiful,

00:46:45.470 --> 00:46:46.100
 actually.

00:46:46.100 --> 00:46:47.970
 It is, separately, I've

00:46:47.970 --> 00:46:50.420
 concluded after watching all of

00:46:50.420 --> 00:46:52.580
 this wedge politics that's been

00:46:52.580 --> 00:46:52.780
 going

00:46:52.780 --> 00:46:54.460
 on, is that we forgot that we

00:46:54.460 --> 00:46:56.270
're one country, and that we do

00:46:56.270 --> 00:46:58.180
 have some shared values, that

00:46:58.180 --> 00:46:59.540
 we're not that divided.

00:46:59.540 --> 00:47:00.920
 And what are called progressive

00:47:00.920 --> 00:47:02.240
 values, that is, empathy and

00:47:02.240 --> 00:47:03.620
 responsibility are American

00:47:03.620 --> 00:47:04.620
 values.

00:47:04.620 --> 00:47:05.620
 Absolutely.

00:47:05.620 --> 00:47:08.170
 And he says this out now in the

00:47:08.170 --> 00:47:11.050
 audacity of hope, and it's very

00:47:11.050 --> 00:47:12.900
 clear that that's how

00:47:12.900 --> 00:47:14.770
 he thinks about this, and that

00:47:14.770 --> 00:47:16.180
's how he functions.

00:47:16.180 --> 00:47:17.310
 And that's what people are

00:47:17.310 --> 00:47:18.350
 responding to, and there's

00:47:18.350 --> 00:47:19.460
 something else that's very

00:47:19.460 --> 00:47:20.740
 important.

00:47:20.740 --> 00:47:22.550
 A lot of the people who are

00:47:22.550 --> 00:47:24.820
 responding to Obama are sick of

00:47:24.820 --> 00:47:26.820
 the Democrats giving in to

00:47:26.820 --> 00:47:27.820
 the Republicans.

00:47:27.820 --> 00:47:29.580
 They're sick of progressives

00:47:29.580 --> 00:47:31.290
 giving in to conservative

00:47:31.290 --> 00:47:31.900
 framing.

00:47:31.900 --> 00:47:33.650
 Now one thing about framing,

00:47:33.650 --> 00:47:35.660
 coming back to framing, is this

00:47:35.660 --> 00:47:37.600
, words and expressions activate

00:47:37.600 --> 00:47:39.600
 frames which in turn activate

00:47:39.600 --> 00:47:41.590
 whole world views and systems

00:47:41.590 --> 00:47:42.580
 of thought.

00:47:42.580 --> 00:47:45.230
 And if you negate a frame, you

00:47:45.230 --> 00:47:47.660
 still activate a frame.

00:47:47.660 --> 00:47:48.460
 That's why I wrote a book

00:47:48.460 --> 00:47:49.370
 called Don't Think of an Ele

00:47:49.370 --> 00:47:49.780
phant.

00:47:49.780 --> 00:47:50.880
 You have to think of the

00:47:50.880 --> 00:47:51.420
 elephant.

00:47:51.420 --> 00:47:52.420
 Right?

00:47:52.420 --> 00:47:53.420
 He can't help it, right?

00:47:53.420 --> 00:47:54.420
 Right, exactly.

00:47:54.420 --> 00:47:55.820
 So it doesn't matter if you're

00:47:55.820 --> 00:47:57.350
 for or against, if you frame it

00:47:57.350 --> 00:47:58.660
 that way, and Obama is very

00:47:58.660 --> 00:47:59.660
 good about that.

00:47:59.660 --> 00:48:01.690
 He understands that you have to

00:48:01.690 --> 00:48:03.390
 change frames and reframe

00:48:03.390 --> 00:48:05.700
 issues from your perspective,

00:48:05.700 --> 00:48:08.360
 and from a nurturing

00:48:08.360 --> 00:48:09.660
 perspective.

00:48:09.660 --> 00:48:11.590
 But if you believe in the

00:48:11.590 --> 00:48:14.040
 rational actor model, if you

00:48:14.040 --> 00:48:16.780
 believe that thought is neutral

00:48:16.780 --> 00:48:17.580
, then

00:48:17.580 --> 00:48:18.850
 it follows that language must

00:48:18.850 --> 00:48:20.220
 be neutral, because if thought

00:48:20.220 --> 00:48:21.380
 can just fit the world.

00:48:21.380 --> 00:48:23.540
 Whose point of view is this?

00:48:23.540 --> 00:48:25.040
 The rational actor.

00:48:25.040 --> 00:48:26.870
 The idea of rationalism there,

00:48:26.870 --> 00:48:28.500
 that false view of reason that

00:48:28.500 --> 00:48:29.700
 I was mentioning.

00:48:29.700 --> 00:48:31.460
 If you believe that, and many

00:48:31.460 --> 00:48:33.300
 people in the Democratic Party

00:48:33.300 --> 00:48:34.940
 do, then you'll just tell

00:48:34.940 --> 00:48:36.120
 people the facts and they

00:48:36.120 --> 00:48:37.360
 should reason to the right

00:48:37.360 --> 00:48:38.640
 conclusion, but also they

00:48:38.640 --> 00:48:39.040
 assume

00:48:39.040 --> 00:48:40.800
 language is neutral and that

00:48:40.800 --> 00:48:42.640
 they can accept conservative

00:48:42.640 --> 00:48:44.180
 words without accepting

00:48:44.180 --> 00:48:45.140
 conservative

00:48:45.140 --> 00:48:46.140
 ideas.

00:48:46.140 --> 00:48:47.920
 And that can't work that way.

00:48:47.920 --> 00:48:50.000
 If you accept their words, what

00:48:50.000 --> 00:48:51.770
 you're doing is framing the

00:48:51.770 --> 00:48:53.720
 issue in their way, which in

00:48:53.720 --> 00:48:55.460
 turn activates their values.

00:48:55.460 --> 00:48:57.330
 For example, the surge, is it

00:48:57.330 --> 00:48:58.100
 working?

00:48:58.100 --> 00:48:59.100
 Yes.

00:48:59.100 --> 00:49:00.100
 Right.

00:49:00.100 --> 00:49:01.420
 And if we're going to debate

00:49:01.420 --> 00:49:02.910
 whether the surge is working,

00:49:02.910 --> 00:49:04.300
 we're ignoring all the other

00:49:04.300 --> 00:49:07.360
 questions that are swirling all

00:49:07.360 --> 00:49:08.860
 around Iraq.

00:49:08.860 --> 00:49:10.270
 It's not whether or not the

00:49:10.270 --> 00:49:11.870
 surge is working, it's this

00:49:11.870 --> 00:49:13.580
 whole thing, a good thing to be

00:49:13.580 --> 00:49:14.580
 doing.

00:49:14.580 --> 00:49:15.580
 Right.

00:49:15.580 --> 00:49:16.490
 And are we at war or is this an

00:49:16.490 --> 00:49:17.020
 occupation?

00:49:17.020 --> 00:49:18.820
 It's obviously an occupation.

00:49:18.820 --> 00:49:19.820
 Right.

00:49:19.820 --> 00:49:21.360
 But they don't want to use the

00:49:21.360 --> 00:49:21.940
 words.

00:49:21.940 --> 00:49:23.550
 If they did use that word, you

00:49:23.550 --> 00:49:24.920
 would understand why the

00:49:24.920 --> 00:49:26.760
 Republicans want to be there.

00:49:26.760 --> 00:49:27.950
 And they don't want us to be

00:49:27.950 --> 00:49:29.110
 talking about why they want to

00:49:29.110 --> 00:49:29.680
 be there.

00:49:29.680 --> 00:49:30.680
 Exactly right.

00:49:30.680 --> 00:49:32.850
 And so it goes back to, as I

00:49:32.850 --> 00:49:34.960
 was listening to you describe

00:49:34.960 --> 00:49:37.200
 the whole Republican, not

00:49:37.200 --> 00:49:39.190
 nurturing but discern discipl

00:49:39.190 --> 00:49:41.120
inary father view of things,

00:49:41.120 --> 00:49:42.940
 that while they're busy discipl

00:49:42.940 --> 00:49:43.400
ining

00:49:43.400 --> 00:49:46.070
 everybody, they're stealing all

00:49:46.070 --> 00:49:47.520
 over the place.

00:49:47.520 --> 00:49:49.450
 The money is being shoveled

00:49:49.450 --> 00:49:51.400
 from our pockets into their

00:49:51.400 --> 00:49:52.300
 pockets.

00:49:52.300 --> 00:49:53.970
 All of the people from Texas

00:49:53.970 --> 00:49:55.640
 that Cheney and Bush came to

00:49:55.640 --> 00:49:57.240
 town with, these are both

00:49:57.240 --> 00:49:57.900
 defense

00:49:57.900 --> 00:49:58.900
 contractors.

00:49:58.900 --> 00:50:00.590
 Cheney especially, was the

00:50:00.590 --> 00:50:02.500
 president, CEO of a big defense

00:50:02.500 --> 00:50:04.300
 contractor before he became

00:50:04.300 --> 00:50:05.300
 it.

00:50:05.300 --> 00:50:05.780
 And he'll go back to being a

00:50:05.780 --> 00:50:06.300
 defense contractor.

00:50:06.300 --> 00:50:07.680
 I don't make huge amounts of

00:50:07.680 --> 00:50:08.180
 money.

00:50:08.180 --> 00:50:10.430
 Their bank account, no doubt,

00:50:10.430 --> 00:50:12.450
 is sitting there waiting for

00:50:12.450 --> 00:50:13.100
 them.

00:50:13.100 --> 00:50:14.220
 And so then this brings us to

00:50:14.220 --> 00:50:15.400
 the question, so we're clearly

00:50:15.400 --> 00:50:16.500
 going to go up to an hour.

00:50:16.500 --> 00:50:17.770
 I just want to, maybe we could

00:50:17.770 --> 00:50:19.040
 do another one of these, I don

00:50:19.040 --> 00:50:20.120
't know if you're open to

00:50:20.120 --> 00:50:21.920
 it, but because I'm thinking

00:50:21.920 --> 00:50:23.730
 that we're just almost, in a

00:50:23.730 --> 00:50:25.880
 way, just getting started, is

00:50:25.880 --> 00:50:27.420
 well what do you do about this,

00:50:27.420 --> 00:50:27.760
 okay?

00:50:27.760 --> 00:50:28.870
 So we're coming up to a

00:50:28.870 --> 00:50:30.570
 campaign, presumably the

00:50:30.570 --> 00:50:31.850
 Republicans are not going to

00:50:31.850 --> 00:50:32.840
 concede,

00:50:32.840 --> 00:50:35.540
 okay fine, we lose, you win,

00:50:35.540 --> 00:50:37.800
 there's going to be a battle

00:50:37.800 --> 00:50:40.520
 going on here, and how do we

00:50:40.520 --> 00:50:42.960
 get, or will we get past the

00:50:42.960 --> 00:50:45.720
 usual problems that we get?

00:50:45.720 --> 00:50:47.460
 Well this is, because you,

00:50:47.460 --> 00:50:49.000
 first of all, you need to know

00:50:49.000 --> 00:50:50.160
 what a conservative

00:50:50.160 --> 00:50:51.260
 infrastructure

00:50:51.260 --> 00:50:53.760
 is.

00:50:53.760 --> 00:50:55.340
 Conservatives have a group of

00:50:55.340 --> 00:50:56.660
 think tanks, right?

00:50:56.660 --> 00:50:58.590
 And their think tanks work the

00:50:58.590 --> 00:51:00.420
 opposite of the way progressive

00:51:00.420 --> 00:51:01.740
 think tanks work.

00:51:01.740 --> 00:51:02.710
 And that's a very important

00:51:02.710 --> 00:51:03.320
 thing to know.

00:51:03.320 --> 00:51:05.120
 Their think tanks start with

00:51:05.120 --> 00:51:07.080
 the idea of conservatism, and

00:51:07.080 --> 00:51:08.660
 apply it in every way.

00:51:08.660 --> 00:51:09.940
 And usually, you know,

00:51:09.940 --> 00:51:11.700
 sometimes 50% of their budget

00:51:11.700 --> 00:51:13.160
 is about communication, and

00:51:13.160 --> 00:51:13.980
 communicating

00:51:13.980 --> 00:51:16.930
 the general ideas, and then

00:51:16.930 --> 00:51:18.800
 special cases.

00:51:18.800 --> 00:51:19.850
 Progressives, when they have

00:51:19.850 --> 00:51:20.880
 think tanks like the Center for

00:51:20.880 --> 00:51:21.880
 American Progress, start

00:51:21.880 --> 00:51:24.170
 with individual issue areas,

00:51:24.170 --> 00:51:26.510
 and they try to, you know, look

00:51:26.510 --> 00:51:28.720
 at individual issue areas,

00:51:28.720 --> 00:51:30.480
 and their policy think tanks,

00:51:30.480 --> 00:51:32.240
 they go issue by issue policies

00:51:32.240 --> 00:51:33.640
, and they never get to

00:51:33.640 --> 00:51:35.680
 the general ideas.

00:51:35.680 --> 00:51:36.880
 They don't go across the

00:51:36.880 --> 00:51:38.330
 policies, across the issue

00:51:38.330 --> 00:51:38.880
 areas.

00:51:38.880 --> 00:51:40.450
 And the reason is that they're

00:51:40.450 --> 00:51:42.030
 using this notion of rational

00:51:42.030 --> 00:51:43.960
ism, that is they're assuming

00:51:43.960 --> 00:51:46.590
 that, you know, people reason

00:51:46.590 --> 00:51:49.310
 according to logic, that they

00:51:49.310 --> 00:51:51.340
 go according to the facts.

00:51:51.340 --> 00:51:52.490
 If you just give people the

00:51:52.490 --> 00:51:53.810
 facts, they'll reason to the

00:51:53.810 --> 00:51:54.820
 right conclusion.

00:51:54.820 --> 00:51:56.020
 And then of course, the facts

00:51:56.020 --> 00:51:56.880
 about one issue area are

00:51:56.880 --> 00:51:58.070
 different from the facts about

00:51:58.070 --> 00:51:58.700
 another,

00:51:58.700 --> 00:51:59.630
 so you have to separate them

00:51:59.630 --> 00:52:00.510
 off, and you don't see the

00:52:00.510 --> 00:52:01.460
 general principles.

00:52:01.460 --> 00:52:03.800
 So we need a whole theory then,

00:52:03.800 --> 00:52:06.320
 that encompasses our goals, and

00:52:06.320 --> 00:52:08.820
 also positions the Republicans,

00:52:08.820 --> 00:52:10.660
 the way the Republicans

00:52:10.660 --> 00:52:11.800
 position liberals.

00:52:11.800 --> 00:52:14.060
 We have to put some ideas into

00:52:14.060 --> 00:52:15.960
 people's heads that the

00:52:15.960 --> 00:52:18.480
 equivalent of tax and spend.

00:52:18.480 --> 00:52:19.780
 They need to have something

00:52:19.780 --> 00:52:20.880
 like that to go with them.

00:52:20.880 --> 00:52:23.080
 Well, that's part of the story.

00:52:23.080 --> 00:52:25.140
 Yes, but part only, it's only,

00:52:25.140 --> 00:52:27.800
 it's only part of the story.

00:52:27.800 --> 00:52:28.860
 We have to be honest at all

00:52:28.860 --> 00:52:30.110
 times, because we're not

00:52:30.110 --> 00:52:30.960
 fighting honesty.

00:52:30.960 --> 00:52:33.390
 I think we better off being

00:52:33.390 --> 00:52:35.610
 honest, and then we don't give

00:52:35.610 --> 00:52:36.720
 them the equivalent of a tax

00:52:36.720 --> 00:52:37.720
 and spend that.

00:52:37.720 --> 00:52:38.600
 Because though, it's an honest

00:52:38.600 --> 00:52:38.940
 thing.

00:52:38.940 --> 00:52:40.660
 No, what you'd say is there are

00:52:40.660 --> 00:52:42.060
 honest things to say.

00:52:42.060 --> 00:52:43.700
 How about rape and pillage?

00:52:43.700 --> 00:52:44.700
 Is that like...

00:52:44.700 --> 00:52:45.700
 Not a good idea.

00:52:45.700 --> 00:52:46.700
 No, not a good idea.

00:52:46.700 --> 00:52:49.340
 Not a good idea, for a number

00:52:49.340 --> 00:52:50.700
 of reasons.

00:52:50.700 --> 00:52:53.650
 I think it's very important to

00:52:53.650 --> 00:52:56.820
 understand, first, you have to

00:52:56.820 --> 00:52:59.160
 get your ideas out there

00:52:59.160 --> 00:53:00.970
 first, and that you're

00:53:00.970 --> 00:53:03.400
 positively in many forms, and

00:53:03.400 --> 00:53:05.620
 that's a long-term thing.

00:53:05.620 --> 00:53:06.790
 And you have to have a

00:53:06.790 --> 00:53:08.690
 communication system to do it,

00:53:08.690 --> 00:53:10.100
 and you have to have think

00:53:10.100 --> 00:53:10.520
 tanks

00:53:10.520 --> 00:53:12.720
 to do it.

00:53:12.720 --> 00:53:14.740
 What Rockbridge Institute does

00:53:14.740 --> 00:53:16.410
 is we specialize in what is

00:53:16.410 --> 00:53:18.320
 called cognitive policy.

00:53:18.320 --> 00:53:19.560
 And let me explain the

00:53:19.560 --> 00:53:21.220
 difference between cognitive

00:53:21.220 --> 00:53:22.580
 and material policy.

00:53:22.580 --> 00:53:24.520
 Material policy is the nuts and

00:53:24.520 --> 00:53:25.160
 bolts.

00:53:25.160 --> 00:53:26.500
 What happens in the world?

00:53:26.500 --> 00:53:28.100
 What does your health plan

00:53:28.100 --> 00:53:29.810
 exactly look like, and what

00:53:29.810 --> 00:53:31.160
 does it exactly do?

00:53:31.160 --> 00:53:33.080
 Cognitive policy has two parts.

00:53:33.080 --> 00:53:34.880
 One of it is, what do you need

00:53:34.880 --> 00:53:36.560
 to get popular support for

00:53:36.560 --> 00:53:38.540
 whatever you're going to do,

00:53:38.540 --> 00:53:40.160
 and how do you conceptualize

00:53:40.160 --> 00:53:42.020
 what it is you're going to do?

00:53:42.020 --> 00:53:43.530
 How do you, for example, do you

00:53:43.530 --> 00:53:44.880
 distinguish between health

00:53:44.880 --> 00:53:46.360
 insurance and health care?

00:53:46.360 --> 00:53:48.100
 One of the things we learned

00:53:48.100 --> 00:53:49.970
 from SICO is health care is not

00:53:49.970 --> 00:53:51.420
 health insurance.

00:53:51.420 --> 00:53:53.410
 Health insurance is there to

00:53:53.410 --> 00:53:54.900
 deny people care.

00:53:54.900 --> 00:53:56.900
 Is that a truth?

00:53:56.900 --> 00:53:57.900
 Is that out there?

00:53:57.900 --> 00:54:00.930
 We don't hear it discussed, but

00:54:00.930 --> 00:54:02.220
 it's true.

00:54:02.220 --> 00:54:04.320
 How does that affect your

00:54:04.320 --> 00:54:05.800
 health plans?

00:54:05.800 --> 00:54:08.000
 What should they be if they're

00:54:08.000 --> 00:54:10.260
 not health insurance, and how

00:54:10.260 --> 00:54:11.440
 do you do it?

00:54:11.440 --> 00:54:12.870
 But the question is, why should

00:54:12.870 --> 00:54:14.400
 you have a health care system?

00:54:14.400 --> 00:54:15.400
 Why should people have health

00:54:15.400 --> 00:54:15.720
 care?

00:54:15.720 --> 00:54:16.970
 It has to do with empathy,

00:54:16.970 --> 00:54:18.590
 caring about people, and acting

00:54:18.590 --> 00:54:20.400
 responsibly, and understanding

00:54:20.400 --> 00:54:21.920
 that government is about

00:54:21.920 --> 00:54:23.920
 protection and empowerment.

00:54:23.920 --> 00:54:25.540
 Once you have those ideas, it's

00:54:25.540 --> 00:54:26.920
 pretty clear why you should

00:54:26.920 --> 00:54:28.400
 have a health care system.

00:54:28.400 --> 00:54:29.960
 And once you understand what

00:54:29.960 --> 00:54:31.510
 health insurance is like as

00:54:31.510 --> 00:54:33.230
 opposed to health care, it's

00:54:33.230 --> 00:54:33.340
 pretty

00:54:33.340 --> 00:54:34.820
 sure it shouldn't be a health

00:54:34.820 --> 00:54:36.020
 insurance system.

00:54:36.020 --> 00:54:38.360
 Now, those ideas have to be out

00:54:38.360 --> 00:54:40.430
 there in order to have a sane

00:54:40.430 --> 00:54:42.180
 health care system.

00:54:42.180 --> 00:54:43.740
 And the question is, how do you

00:54:43.740 --> 00:54:45.220
 get those ideas out there?

00:54:45.220 --> 00:54:49.240
 Let's take other questions.

00:54:49.240 --> 00:54:51.470
 You brought up, as long as some

00:54:51.470 --> 00:54:54.120
 people are asking, is the surge

00:54:54.120 --> 00:54:54.740
 working?

00:54:54.740 --> 00:54:57.850
 You're in conservative

00:54:57.850 --> 00:55:00.290
 territory, because that says

00:55:00.290 --> 00:55:03.500
 what is at issue is the surge.

00:55:03.500 --> 00:55:04.980
 That's the question.

00:55:04.980 --> 00:55:06.050
 And if it's working, you're

00:55:06.050 --> 00:55:07.300
 right, and if it's not working,

00:55:07.300 --> 00:55:08.000
 you're wrong.

00:55:08.000 --> 00:55:10.760
 And then the working has to do

00:55:10.760 --> 00:55:14.020
 with the number of casualties.

00:55:14.020 --> 00:55:16.740
 If you're in that frame, that's

00:55:16.740 --> 00:55:17.060
 it.

00:55:17.060 --> 00:55:18.710
 You have to have a very

00:55:18.710 --> 00:55:20.300
 different frame.

00:55:20.300 --> 00:55:21.590
 And one of the questions that

00:55:21.590 --> 00:55:22.950
 will happen in this campaign is

00:55:22.950 --> 00:55:24.260
, what will happen if there

00:55:24.260 --> 00:55:27.350
 is an attack on American soil,

00:55:27.350 --> 00:55:30.640
 or if the Bush administration

00:55:30.640 --> 00:55:32.700
 attacks Iran or does something

00:55:32.700 --> 00:55:35.790
 like that to provoke an attack

00:55:35.790 --> 00:55:36.900
 on Iran?

00:55:36.900 --> 00:55:39.170
 And at that point, fear will

00:55:39.170 --> 00:55:40.060
 come in.

00:55:40.060 --> 00:55:41.590
 And in fact, conservatives are

00:55:41.590 --> 00:55:42.950
 already saying, this is the

00:55:42.950 --> 00:55:44.210
 biggest thing we should be

00:55:44.210 --> 00:55:44.620
 afraid

00:55:44.620 --> 00:55:46.370
 of is the Islamovashism and so

00:55:46.370 --> 00:55:46.740
 on.

00:55:46.740 --> 00:55:48.650
 The ads are already on TV right

00:55:48.650 --> 00:55:49.140
 now.

00:55:49.140 --> 00:55:51.780
 We have fear, fear, fear, fear.

00:55:51.780 --> 00:55:53.260
 Now what you need to do if you

00:55:53.260 --> 00:55:54.860
're progressive is come out

00:55:54.860 --> 00:55:55.660
 positively.

00:55:55.660 --> 00:55:59.580
 You say, America's not afraid.

00:55:59.580 --> 00:56:01.700
 Fear weakens us.

00:56:01.700 --> 00:56:03.460
 Courage strengthens us.

00:56:03.460 --> 00:56:05.500
 We are not afraid.

00:56:05.500 --> 00:56:08.350
 And conservatives are fear mong

00:56:08.350 --> 00:56:09.020
ers.

00:56:09.020 --> 00:56:10.630
 They have worked by bringing

00:56:10.630 --> 00:56:12.030
 fear, and that has been a

00:56:12.030 --> 00:56:13.620
 disaster to our country.

00:56:13.620 --> 00:56:16.060
 And when you talk about that,

00:56:16.060 --> 00:56:18.480
 you also link the recession to

00:56:18.480 --> 00:56:20.780
 the war, and you talk about

00:56:20.780 --> 00:56:22.920
 the Iraq recession, which

00:56:22.920 --> 00:56:25.400
 already has begun to be done.

00:56:25.400 --> 00:56:26.400
 And then you explain.

00:56:26.400 --> 00:56:28.080
 You go through the details of

00:56:28.080 --> 00:56:29.830
 what that means and how that--

00:56:29.830 --> 00:56:31.580
 once you have it as an idea,

00:56:31.580 --> 00:56:32.580
 you can do it.

00:56:32.580 --> 00:56:34.490
 But it has to be tied into

00:56:34.490 --> 00:56:35.780
 other ideas.

00:56:35.780 --> 00:56:39.140
 And you need to have a campaign

00:56:39.140 --> 00:56:41.750
 that goes about saying

00:56:41.750 --> 00:56:45.180
 positively the ideas that you

00:56:45.180 --> 00:56:47.980
 have that evoke and activate

00:56:47.980 --> 00:56:50.890
 the positive neural pathways

00:56:50.890 --> 00:56:53.640
 and not the negative neural

00:56:53.640 --> 00:56:55.180
 pathways.

00:56:55.180 --> 00:56:57.200
 And there's a reason why Obama

00:56:57.200 --> 00:56:59.440
 talks about hope, because that

00:56:59.440 --> 00:57:00.980
 is what he's doing.

00:57:00.980 --> 00:57:02.980
 And that makes people feel good

00:57:02.980 --> 00:57:03.860
 about him.

00:57:03.860 --> 00:57:06.100
 And he also has the idea of

00:57:06.100 --> 00:57:08.680
 integrity and so on and trust

00:57:08.680 --> 00:57:10.500
 that's built in.

00:57:10.500 --> 00:57:12.200
 So the Obama campaign is

00:57:12.200 --> 00:57:14.460
 interesting in that regard.

00:57:14.460 --> 00:57:16.230
 Now, the McCain campaign is

00:57:16.230 --> 00:57:18.070
 also interesting in that regard

00:57:18.070 --> 00:57:18.340
.

00:57:18.340 --> 00:57:20.010
 McCain is coming across as a

00:57:20.010 --> 00:57:21.880
 straight shooter and so on.

00:57:21.880 --> 00:57:23.820
 And then the question is, is he

00:57:23.820 --> 00:57:24.540
 really?

00:57:24.540 --> 00:57:26.910
 And you can begin to see that

00:57:26.910 --> 00:57:29.370
 progressives are saying no, he

00:57:29.370 --> 00:57:30.800
 isn't really.

00:57:30.800 --> 00:57:31.800
 He has lied.

00:57:31.800 --> 00:57:33.120
 His campaign is run by lobby

00:57:33.120 --> 00:57:34.610
ists, and he says he's never

00:57:34.610 --> 00:57:36.340
 taken a dime from lobbyists,

00:57:36.340 --> 00:57:37.340
 et cetera.

00:57:37.340 --> 00:57:40.590
 And in short, what's going on

00:57:40.590 --> 00:57:42.930
 here is that there is a

00:57:42.930 --> 00:57:45.760
 question of who really has

00:57:45.760 --> 00:57:47.360
 integrity,

00:57:47.360 --> 00:57:49.000
 who really is a person you can

00:57:49.000 --> 00:57:50.700
 trust, who is authentic.

00:57:50.700 --> 00:57:52.660
 That's a major issue there.

00:57:52.660 --> 00:57:53.950
 And then the question of

00:57:53.950 --> 00:57:55.460
 whether there's going to be

00:57:55.460 --> 00:57:57.260
 fear or hope in this election.

00:57:57.260 --> 00:57:58.690
 And therefore, what issues are

00:57:58.690 --> 00:57:59.890
 going to come up and whether

00:57:59.890 --> 00:58:01.220
 there's going to be a linkage

00:58:01.220 --> 00:58:03.880
 between the use of the military

00:58:03.880 --> 00:58:05.900
 and the recession.

00:58:05.900 --> 00:58:07.710
 And whether the economic issues

00:58:07.710 --> 00:58:07.920
.

00:58:07.920 --> 00:58:09.330
 In other words, the Iraq

00:58:09.330 --> 00:58:10.220
 recession.

00:58:10.220 --> 00:58:11.380
 The Iraq recession.

00:58:11.380 --> 00:58:12.380
 Yeah.

00:58:12.380 --> 00:58:13.850
 So you can sort of see that

00:58:13.850 --> 00:58:15.860
 happening and about to happen.

00:58:15.860 --> 00:58:17.640
 But what's crucial for progress

00:58:17.640 --> 00:58:18.460
ives right now--

00:58:18.460 --> 00:58:19.910
 Do you think that Obama was

00:58:19.910 --> 00:58:21.130
 going to do that linkage

00:58:21.130 --> 00:58:22.900
 between Iraq and the recession?

00:58:22.900 --> 00:58:25.380
 I can't say for sure, but it

00:58:25.380 --> 00:58:28.100
 would be silly if he didn't.

00:58:28.100 --> 00:58:29.100
 He's already said it.

00:58:29.100 --> 00:58:30.100
 I mean--

00:58:30.100 --> 00:58:31.340
 As you haven't heard that.

00:58:31.340 --> 00:58:33.940
 He has already said it, but not

00:58:33.940 --> 00:58:35.500
 in those words.

00:58:35.500 --> 00:58:38.770
 He has said it in terms of the

00:58:38.770 --> 00:58:42.470
 lost opportunities because of

00:58:42.470 --> 00:58:43.460
 this.

00:58:43.460 --> 00:58:45.140
 Why we have to end Iraq in

00:58:45.140 --> 00:58:47.340
 order to bring the country back

00:58:47.340 --> 00:58:49.260
 economically and so on.

00:58:49.260 --> 00:58:51.430
 He hasn't used the words, but

00:58:51.430 --> 00:58:53.580
 he has used the logic of it.

00:58:53.580 --> 00:58:55.470
 And he hasn't put it up front

00:58:55.470 --> 00:58:57.530
 as a major position, but it's

00:58:57.530 --> 00:58:59.320
 there in what he says.

00:58:59.320 --> 00:59:00.820
 It hasn't been the important

00:59:00.820 --> 00:59:02.660
 issue of the primary campaign.

00:59:02.660 --> 00:59:04.450
 Obviously, that's what he's

00:59:04.450 --> 00:59:05.910
 going to use against the

00:59:05.910 --> 00:59:07.020
 Republicans.

00:59:07.020 --> 00:59:08.850
 I would suspect that that will

00:59:08.850 --> 00:59:09.940
 come in there.

00:59:09.940 --> 00:59:10.940
 I suspect that--

00:59:10.940 --> 00:59:13.020
 Can already see McCain, by the

00:59:13.020 --> 00:59:14.600
 way, pulling back from his

00:59:14.600 --> 00:59:16.580
 hundred Iraq base, which was

00:59:16.580 --> 00:59:17.580
 an out-and-out mistake.

00:59:17.580 --> 00:59:18.580
 Sure.

00:59:18.580 --> 00:59:19.580
 What did you say?

00:59:19.580 --> 00:59:21.960
 It was a major mistake, but it

00:59:21.960 --> 00:59:24.000
 is the position of the Bush

00:59:24.000 --> 00:59:26.410
 administration and it's the

00:59:26.410 --> 00:59:26.780
 position

00:59:26.780 --> 00:59:27.780
 that he wants--

00:59:27.780 --> 00:59:28.780
 It's too honest, though.

00:59:28.780 --> 00:59:29.780
 It's too honest.

00:59:29.780 --> 00:59:31.320
 It's way too honest for him to

00:59:31.320 --> 00:59:32.340
 have said that.

00:59:32.340 --> 00:59:34.530
 It's very clearly what the

00:59:34.530 --> 00:59:36.520
 current government and the

00:59:36.520 --> 00:59:38.660
 vector that they're on.

00:59:38.660 --> 00:59:39.950
 It's what the United States

00:59:39.950 --> 00:59:41.260
 wants to do, honestly.

00:59:41.260 --> 00:59:43.110
 Just in terms of we've had a

00:59:43.110 --> 00:59:45.400
 history in the Middle East, and

00:59:45.400 --> 00:59:47.140
 it's very consistent with

00:59:47.140 --> 00:59:48.930
 the other things that we've

00:59:48.930 --> 00:59:50.020
 done and stuff.

00:59:50.020 --> 00:59:51.020
 Sure.

00:59:51.020 --> 00:59:52.020
 I think that that's easy.

00:59:52.020 --> 00:59:53.740
 You're going to see all of that

00:59:53.740 --> 00:59:53.860
.

00:59:53.860 --> 00:59:55.300
 But what I'm scared of is this.

00:59:55.300 --> 00:59:58.270
 I'm afraid that the Democrats

00:59:58.270 --> 01:00:01.040
 are not going to be able to

01:00:01.040 --> 01:00:03.880
 counter the conservative fram

01:00:03.880 --> 01:00:04.420
ings

01:00:04.420 --> 01:00:06.690
 and that they're not going to

01:00:06.690 --> 01:00:09.290
 understand that they have to do

01:00:09.290 --> 01:00:09.900
 that.

01:00:09.900 --> 01:00:11.650
 For example, if you're trying

01:00:11.650 --> 01:00:13.120
 to get the Democrats in the

01:00:13.120 --> 01:00:15.490
 Senate and the House all to

01:00:15.490 --> 01:00:16.100
 come together

01:00:16.100 --> 01:00:18.320
 under the leadership to oppose

01:00:18.320 --> 01:00:19.500
 not only the Bush

01:00:19.500 --> 01:00:21.700
 administration's ideas, but

01:00:21.700 --> 01:00:22.500
 generally

01:00:22.500 --> 01:00:24.760
 the conservative ideas and to

01:00:24.760 --> 01:00:27.010
 hold firm on it, you've got to

01:00:27.010 --> 01:00:28.900
 deal with the three-way

01:00:28.900 --> 01:00:32.940
 split in the Democratic Party.

01:00:32.940 --> 01:00:34.780
 What is the three-way split?

01:00:34.780 --> 01:00:37.280
 You have the progressives, you

01:00:37.280 --> 01:00:39.310
 have the DLC, which is the

01:00:39.310 --> 01:00:41.620
 people who believe in the neol

01:00:41.620 --> 01:00:42.500
iberals,

01:00:42.500 --> 01:00:44.640
 and then you have the blue dogs

01:00:44.640 --> 01:00:47.230
, who are progressive, basically

01:00:47.230 --> 01:00:49.620
, but they're biconceptual.

01:00:49.620 --> 01:00:51.060
 They have some conservative

01:00:51.060 --> 01:00:52.390
 ideas, and they come from

01:00:52.390 --> 01:00:54.020
 districts where there are a lot

01:00:54.020 --> 01:00:56.300
 of conservatives and where

01:00:56.300 --> 01:00:58.420
 people in their districts are

01:00:58.420 --> 01:01:01.180
 accepting the right-wing frames

01:01:01.180 --> 01:01:01.340
.

01:01:01.340 --> 01:01:03.020
 What you have to do is address

01:01:03.020 --> 01:01:04.560
 that, because you have to

01:01:04.560 --> 01:01:06.170
 change what people in their

01:01:06.170 --> 01:01:06.820
 districts

01:01:06.820 --> 01:01:09.260
 are accepting.

01:01:09.260 --> 01:01:10.930
 That's important, unless they

01:01:10.930 --> 01:01:12.740
're in districts that are safe.

01:01:12.740 --> 01:01:15.080
 In the Senate races, like Mary

01:01:15.080 --> 01:01:17.710
 Landro, let's say, in Louisiana

01:01:17.710 --> 01:01:19.820
, places like that, it's

01:01:19.820 --> 01:01:21.700
 clear that a lot of

01:01:21.700 --> 01:01:25.230
 conservatives in Louisiana, in

01:01:25.230 --> 01:01:28.380
 the Democratic Party or not,

01:01:28.380 --> 01:01:29.660
 who have strict

01:01:29.660 --> 01:01:32.020
 father ideas.

01:01:32.020 --> 01:01:34.780
 The question is, what can she

01:01:34.780 --> 01:01:36.260
 say to those?

01:01:36.260 --> 01:01:37.310
 What is her strategy for

01:01:37.310 --> 01:01:38.740
 dealing with Louisiana when she

01:01:38.740 --> 01:01:40.220
's running for reelection to the

01:01:40.220 --> 01:01:42.700
 Senate?

01:01:42.700 --> 01:01:44.440
 What is her strategy for

01:01:44.440 --> 01:01:46.540
 winning those votes, given what

01:01:46.540 --> 01:01:48.300
 has happened in the wake of

01:01:48.300 --> 01:01:49.140
 Katrina?

01:01:49.140 --> 01:01:50.790
 I just saw an interview with

01:01:50.790 --> 01:01:52.750
 the Republican governor of

01:01:52.750 --> 01:01:54.460
 Louisiana, and he sounded very

01:01:54.460 --> 01:01:56.810
 much like a Democrat, because

01:01:56.810 --> 01:01:59.580
 he has those needs, presumably.

01:01:59.580 --> 01:02:02.000
 Because I went to college in

01:02:02.000 --> 01:02:04.210
 New Orleans, so I went back

01:02:04.210 --> 01:02:06.620
 after Katrina to get a sense

01:02:06.620 --> 01:02:08.790
 of what it was like and what

01:02:08.790 --> 01:02:11.050
 had happened there, because I

01:02:11.050 --> 01:02:13.620
 knew the city, and I understood

01:02:13.620 --> 01:02:14.060
,

01:02:14.060 --> 01:02:15.900
 God, it was unbelievable what

01:02:15.900 --> 01:02:17.660
 had happened to that city.

01:02:17.660 --> 01:02:18.340
 That changed politics in

01:02:18.340 --> 01:02:19.340
 Louisiana, probably forever, or

01:02:19.340 --> 01:02:20.130
 at least for the foreseeable

01:02:20.130 --> 01:02:21.060
 future.

01:02:21.060 --> 01:02:23.060
 That may be a special case.

01:02:23.060 --> 01:02:26.160
 It also is a fantastic story,

01:02:26.160 --> 01:02:28.460
 not a wonderful story, but

01:02:28.460 --> 01:02:31.350
 certainly one that addresses

01:02:31.350 --> 01:02:31.740
 the

01:02:31.740 --> 01:02:33.290
 issue of whether we were ever

01:02:33.290 --> 01:02:34.960
 prepared for a major terrorist

01:02:34.960 --> 01:02:36.720
 attack, like the Republicans

01:02:36.720 --> 01:02:38.110
 say we have been, because

01:02:38.110 --> 01:02:39.380
 clearly we were not.

01:02:39.380 --> 01:02:42.600
 Well, we clearly are not, and

01:02:42.600 --> 01:02:45.100
 that's another issue.

01:02:45.100 --> 01:02:46.560
 I think we should wind this up,

01:02:46.560 --> 01:02:48.150
 because people's attention span

01:02:48.150 --> 01:02:49.380
, I mean, we got to the good

01:02:49.380 --> 01:02:51.700
 stuff at the end, I think, but

01:02:51.700 --> 01:02:53.680
 I think you should be on the

01:02:53.680 --> 01:02:55.780
 talk shows, when they have

01:02:55.780 --> 01:02:57.680
 these, they're often never,

01:02:57.680 --> 01:02:59.420
 never land a lot of talks.

01:02:59.420 --> 01:03:00.420
 Yeah, they usually are.

01:03:00.420 --> 01:03:02.150
 And I'm wondering if there's in

01:03:02.150 --> 01:03:03.560
 some way we could create a

01:03:03.560 --> 01:03:05.340
 round table that would include

01:03:05.340 --> 01:03:07.470
 yourself and maybe a few other

01:03:07.470 --> 01:03:09.550
 people to try to have, I mean,

01:03:09.550 --> 01:03:11.130
 we have this fantastic

01:03:11.130 --> 01:03:11.860
 communication

01:03:11.860 --> 01:03:13.430
 medium that doesn't have any

01:03:13.430 --> 01:03:15.100
 regulation, there are no limits

01:03:15.100 --> 01:03:16.620
, we can do really whatever

01:03:16.620 --> 01:03:17.620
 we want.

01:03:17.620 --> 01:03:19.930
 I talked before, we were on a

01:03:19.930 --> 01:03:22.170
 microphone about Flickr and

01:03:22.170 --> 01:03:24.860
 about Twitter, there's also all

01:03:24.860 --> 01:03:26.480
 these fantastic video services

01:03:26.480 --> 01:03:28.040
 that have popped up nowadays,

01:03:28.040 --> 01:03:29.020
 beyond YouTube.

01:03:29.020 --> 01:03:30.600
 And YouTube's been, you know,

01:03:30.600 --> 01:03:31.970
 it's great, but there's live

01:03:31.970 --> 01:03:33.580
 video streaming stuff, I'm

01:03:33.580 --> 01:03:34.580
 sure.

01:03:34.580 --> 01:03:35.210
 So, you know, something to

01:03:35.210 --> 01:03:35.580
 think about.

01:03:35.580 --> 01:03:37.580
 I'm happy to do that.

01:03:37.580 --> 01:03:38.750
 In fact, The New York Times is

01:03:38.750 --> 01:03:40.020
 moving in that direction.

01:03:40.020 --> 01:03:41.020
 Is that right?

01:03:41.020 --> 01:03:42.130
 They're about to fire a hundred

01:03:42.130 --> 01:03:42.580
 people.

01:03:42.580 --> 01:03:44.340
 Yes, I heard about that, yeah.

01:03:44.340 --> 01:03:46.160
 Yeah, I mean, this is, and to

01:03:46.160 --> 01:03:48.180
 move more toward the internet.

01:03:48.180 --> 01:03:49.210
 And how they're going to do

01:03:49.210 --> 01:03:50.020
 that, you know?

01:03:50.020 --> 01:03:51.220
 They won't get it at any time

01:03:51.220 --> 01:03:52.060
 soon, George.

01:03:52.060 --> 01:03:53.060
 I can't imagine.

01:03:53.060 --> 01:03:54.180
 I've done a lot of work with

01:03:54.180 --> 01:03:55.370
 The New York Times in various

01:03:55.370 --> 01:03:56.000
 contexts.

01:03:56.000 --> 01:03:57.840
 I can't conceive of them

01:03:57.840 --> 01:03:59.000
 getting it.

01:03:59.000 --> 01:04:00.000
 They'll be the last ones.

01:04:00.000 --> 01:04:01.250
 I mean, they've got the, you

01:04:01.250 --> 01:04:02.650
 know, those hundred people that

01:04:02.650 --> 01:04:04.110
 they're letting go, I mean, I

01:04:04.110 --> 01:04:04.460
've

01:04:04.460 --> 01:04:06.350
 toured the newsroom in the new

01:04:06.350 --> 01:04:08.440
 building, I mean, they've got a

01:04:08.440 --> 01:04:10.220
 lot of insulation, a lot

01:04:10.220 --> 01:04:12.520
 of, you know, they're not

01:04:12.520 --> 01:04:14.520
 living very close to the

01:04:14.520 --> 01:04:16.400
 pavement, like the other

01:04:16.400 --> 01:04:17.120
 newspapers

01:04:17.120 --> 01:04:18.120
 are.

01:04:18.120 --> 01:04:19.100
 You know, they can see the

01:04:19.100 --> 01:04:20.040
 world rushing by them, The New

01:04:20.040 --> 01:04:21.100
 York Times, you know, it sort

01:04:21.100 --> 01:04:22.860
 of has, can go at a slower pace

01:04:22.860 --> 01:04:22.900
.

01:04:22.900 --> 01:04:24.580
 They have done some innovating,

01:04:24.580 --> 01:04:25.760
 but it's, you know.

01:04:25.760 --> 01:04:27.050
 I think the innovating is going

01:04:27.050 --> 01:04:28.300
 to happen outside the context

01:04:28.300 --> 01:04:29.380
 of mainstream media.

01:04:29.380 --> 01:04:31.360
 And in an election year where

01:04:31.360 --> 01:04:33.400
 people are so interested, so

01:04:33.400 --> 01:04:35.540
 activated, presents some,

01:04:35.540 --> 01:04:36.550
 I think, some incredible

01:04:36.550 --> 01:04:37.380
 opportunities.

01:04:37.380 --> 01:04:39.100
 Yeah, I think so too.

01:04:39.100 --> 01:04:40.130
 I hope that we'll get a

01:04:40.130 --> 01:04:41.700
 conversation going around this

01:04:41.700 --> 01:04:42.260
 piece.

01:04:42.260 --> 01:04:43.630
 I'm not sure, you know, what

01:04:43.630 --> 01:04:45.040
 the response is going to be,

01:04:45.040 --> 01:04:46.360
 but when there are comments,

01:04:46.360 --> 01:04:48.250
 if you don't mind, I'll forward

01:04:48.250 --> 01:04:50.060
 them to you and, you know, you

01:04:50.060 --> 01:04:51.260
 can see what people think.

01:04:51.260 --> 01:04:52.260
 Sure.

01:04:52.260 --> 01:04:53.260
 That's the way.

01:04:53.260 --> 01:04:54.950
 I mean, you know, at Rockbridge

01:04:54.950 --> 01:04:56.350
, we try to answer people's

01:04:56.350 --> 01:04:57.160
 questions.

01:04:57.160 --> 01:04:57.830
 That's, you know, www.rockrig

01:04:57.830 --> 01:04:58.160
ination.org.

01:04:58.160 --> 01:04:59.830
 Yeah, I'll put it all over the

01:04:59.830 --> 01:05:01.240
 place, don't worry.

01:05:01.240 --> 01:05:02.240
 Sure.

01:05:02.240 --> 01:05:03.240
 We have, we have.

01:05:03.240 --> 01:05:04.240
 They have a blog.

01:05:04.240 --> 01:05:06.100
 We have a, we have a blog and,

01:05:06.100 --> 01:05:08.030
 and if you write in questions,

01:05:08.030 --> 01:05:09.740
 we try to deal with them.

01:05:09.740 --> 01:05:10.740
 Awesome.

01:05:10.740 --> 01:05:11.740
 Well, thank you, George.

01:05:11.740 --> 01:05:12.740
 My pleasure, Dave.

01:05:12.740 --> 01:05:13.740
 You're welcome.

01:05:13.740 --> 01:05:14.740
 They can't see us.

01:05:14.740 --> 01:05:15.740
 We should.

01:05:15.740 --> 01:05:16.740
 We just should can't.

01:05:16.740 --> 01:05:17.740
 Right off.

01:05:17.740 --> 01:05:18.740
 But, yeah.

01:05:18.740 --> 01:05:19.740
 Okay, cool.

01:05:19.740 --> 01:05:20.740
 Let me just.