So he started to tell a story
who were in the kitchen, and
then he, so I listened to
the story and then he started
to tell a second story.
I said, "Hold on a minute, let
me just do this for you."
And so I did, and at first he
was kind of self-conscious, and
he talked in third person
about me, to the people,
listening to the thing, and I
said, "No, no, don't do that.
Just talk to me like you're
just talking to me," and then
he got the drift of it, and
he did one, and it was a big
hit.
They loved him, you know, my
listeners or readers or
whatever.
So anyway, so you're sharing V
AS, V-A-S-S, do you have a web
log yet?
No, I don't, I don't have a web
log, I have a website, VAS.com,
but it's, you know, that's
strictly commercial.
So what do you think?
Well, of course, what do you
think about the idea of having
a website?
Well, I'm just coming to it
this morning.
The reason I drove down here to
talk to you is because I had
converted a book that I had
on CD to MP3 files with the
idea that, of having people who
were interested in the book
download
it into their iTunes, I'm a Mc
Queen, so, into their iTunes,
and they'd load it onto their
iPod, and actually turn the iP
od into an educational device,
not just rock and roll.
So that was the whole point of
it, and I'm now beginning to,
well, I've had this book
in the works for at least seven
years, and somehow this book, I
have the parts and pieces
of it, but it never wanted to
come together, and the fact of
the matter is I am not a book
writer, even though I have a
book on the market and have had
for 10 years, soft selling in
a hard world.
What I really am is a short
story writer.
I write short pieces, and to me
, that is, my view is anybody
can write about anything
in 30,000 words, but it's hard
to compress, and I use the word
"compress" in software,
in software sense, where you
actually squeeze the dead space
out of the thought or the
concept
or their story or the idea, and
I'm pretty good at that, at
squeezing that stuff out,
so I'm really a short piece
writer, and so I'm seriously
considering, rather than
finishing
this book and sending it off to
the publisher, which quite
frankly, is more and more in my
mind, an antiquated way of
thinking, and you can trust me
on this, the publishing
business
is the most backward business
in the world today.
There's nothing more backward.
I mean, the publishing business
is comparable to streetcars,
and because, and they have
built
in some really interesting
traps in the publishing
business, for instance, if I
submitted a manuscript
today, and let's say that the
manuscript was ready to go to
press, but this book, soft
selling in a hard world,
actually, my daughter and we
wrote it, we edited, I mean, I
hired
a copy editor to edit it, then
we made it out on PageMaker, we
sent it to them on a
PageMaker file, they put it on,
and they ran the book without
change, so they didn't
do any of the mechanical except
for the covers, that was pretty
forward looking for its time,
I mean, it really was, nowadays
, and what way was it, we say,
well, because it wasn't
being done.
It was the author doing all the
production, yeah, the author
doing all the production,
how long did it take them to go
from what you gave them to
actual, to go to, to actually
go to the street with it, took
about 18 months, see, that's
ridiculous, of course it's
ridiculous,
while it's sitting on the shelf
there, it's going out of date,
but it's even worse than
that, it's even worse than that
, this little book, and it
sounds a bit braggadocio, but
it isn't, it's just a fact,
this little book would sell out
instantly, I mean, they would
buy a bookstore, buy six copies
of the meeting they'd go away,
then it would go to a computer
someplace, and then it would be
ordered by a computer, it would
take three weeks for
that book to come back in, so
the book would be on the shelf
for three days, then it would
take three weeks to replace it,
but that's the publishing
business, so when you're
thinking
about writing another book,
basically, we'd go through
exactly that system all over
again,
if I had it done today, it
would, it would not be on the
market, it wouldn't be in the
bookstores for a year, but it's
still kind of nice to go over
to Barnes & Noble and just
pick up a book, I like that, I
'd crawl around over there all
the time, I'm going to Elmore
Leonard books now, and
basically, there's like, they
've got 30 of them over there at
Barnes & Noble, so any time I
want any other fix, I can just
go over there, I can go up,
it's kind of trashy with its
funds, but you know, the
distribution system still is
kind
of relevant, but why does it
take 18 months, of course, well
, because they've got their
own weird customs and
traditions and stuff like that,
maybe unions are involved
somehow
or something like that, I think
it is so hard to make money in
publishing, I think they
have to have a lot of stuff
going, and you just, the author
is simply part of the assembly
line, it's just an assembly
line, and I mean, out of our
discussions, I am seriously
considering
scrapping that whole idea, in
order to a block, because I'm
70 years old, you know, I mean,
I'm so old, I can't, thank you,
that's alright, that's a lie, I
'm so old, I can't buy ripe
bananas, green bananas, I can't
buy green bananas, but anyway,
what I wanted to do is
the ideas that I'm working on
and that I do work on, because
of the nature of my business
as an executive level sales
trainer, is that there is a
currency in persuasion, in a
way
persuasion, changes over time,
people think, well, it's all
about this one way, it isn't,
because the market changes,
everything has to change with
it, and so we are in touch
with those changes, just
because this is what we do for
a living, and we are at the
contact
patch between business and the
street, well, because we talk
to the people who are talking
to the people on the street,
you are talking to the clients
all the time, who is, you are
talking, they are talking, our
students are talking to those
people, and then we talk
to our students, and we probe
very carefully, in the course
of our three day course, and
we get information from them,
and then we take the
information home, and we think
about
it, and we go, you know what,
market is moving, the market is
moving here, and so we try to
move with that market, and so
over time we have discovered a
whole bunch of stuff that
is totally counter-intuitive
and very controversial, it's
going to be very controversial
because
people, businesses, and
industries really have gone
against the marketplace, for
instance,
let's say you have a firm out
here, Acme, Acme Corp, and Acme
Corp builds whatever, Acme
Corp say as a consulting firm,
well they know everything about
what they do, they are very
smart, and we are a culture of
extraordinarily smart and
bright people, but the way they
have been enculturated by going
to school, and by becoming
educated, and by the culture,
by TV, and all the media that
surrounds them, when you ask
them what they do for a living,
as a potential buyer, as a
potential buyer of their
services, they can go to great
lengths
to tell you everything they
know, and how smart they are,
and their credentials, but
they cannot translate it into
the language for the buyer,
they can't translate it into
their customer's language, or
to a language that works in the
boardroom, and that's what
we do, is help them translate
all of this education, and all
of this experience, and
all this marvelous talent into
a message over here that a CEO
will understand, and you have
to understand that CEOs are
extraordinarily smart, but they
don't have any time, so you
don't have time to explain how
wonderful you are, and so that
is one of the things that
we run into, and it sounds like
hyperbole, but it is universal,
it is now a universal
problem in our culture that
businesses cannot explain what
they do from the buyer's point
of view, and so this book is
about that, it's about the new
book, where the new book is
about that premise, about
translating what you do into
the buyer's language, and tent
atively
titled, I don't know if it's
tentatively titled, I have
about 50 titles and I haven't
really
settled on one, but it is about
decoding this thing, about this
communication gap, so anyway
I'm thinking about it, and with
our discussion this morning,
well hell, maybe I have been
waiting for this kind of a
breakthrough in thought, and
maybe blogging is the way to
do that.
Well let me just add something,
because I'm listening here, you
talked about the stuff
is that there aren't any blogs
that I'm aware of that are in
this area, there are lots of
technology blogs, there are
lots of lawyer blogs, lots of
political blogs, Business Week
has started long ago, okay?
Really?
Yeah, but it's not like this,
it sort of like covers
everything that Business Week
covers,
which includes the kind of
stuff you're talking about, but
it's not this kind of focus, it
's
not how to market, and there is
a guy named Steve Rubel who is
a PR guy who has a leading
edge blog, you know, it's how
to do public relations in this
context, and the things
are, you know, I just did a
podcast with him in New York a
couple of days ago, and it was
fascinating stuff, I mean, it's
funny because when, you know,
it's in all of a sudden public
relations, you know, which had
drifted from being public
relations to being press
relations,
right?
Well, now it goes back to being
public relations, because you
know, that big word just
intermediates,
you know, right?
It's everywhere that you look
here, and you know, I think
that where your stuff ends up
is that you're not just going
to be talking to people who
sell to buyers, but you're
going
to be talking to buyers on how
to get what they want out of
the seller.
That's right.
Right?
Because there are a lot of
times when you know that you
need a product, I find, this
happens
to me a lot, where I know I
need a product, and I strongly
believe that a lot of other
people would like to have that
product, yet nobody's making it
, and then five, ten years
from then that, of course,
somebody is making it, and it's
one of the biggest hits you've
ever seen, and it's not that it
was technologically impossible
to do this, you know, five, ten
years before, it's just that
the channel communication was a
one way thing, and the
manufacturers
and product designers weren't
themselves users, so it never
got to them that there was a
way
to, there was a product that
needed to be done.
You know, something like the iP
od, for example, you know, an
incredibly convenient form
factor,
right?
But something in a slightly
less convenient form factor
would have been possible ten
years
or five years ago, for sure,
but somebody had to overcome
all of the inertia that comes
from thinking, well, things
have always been done this way,
and you know, you'll hit the
objections in the music
industry, and you know, they
took a very creative approach
to
things to say, well, we'll, you
know, we'll try to work
something out with the music
industry
at the time when it becomes a
problem, and of course it
worked out real well in the
music
industry.
I read a thing in The Times,
New York Times today, saying
the new president of Sony wants
an iTunes for movies, because
it works so well, you know, and
I personally think that
iTunes could work even better
if it weren't for so much of
the paranoia on the part of
the music industry, and you
know, it's unfortunate that it
takes time for that to sort of
work
its way through the system, but
it will, and so like when you
say that you write in small
sort of story-sized jobs, me
too, and early on in my writing
career, I guess you could
call it, I got a book agent, a
couple of them actually, wanted
me to do a book, you know,
they'd say, well, we can
certainly sell a book to you,
you know, and so I went and
looked,
and I had already written like
three books worth of material
basically, and so I went
back and printed it all out,
just, you know, and they were
in essay form, not block, I
mean
these were, yeah, right, and I
printed it all out and put it
in a binder, and like they
never got around to reading it,
you know, because why, because
I was writing the stuff
for today, you know, and the
stuff when I finally did read
some of it, I thought, well,
you
know, it's kind of interesting
in a sort of time capsule way,
but this stuff's out of
date, way out of date, the
things that I was predicting,
you know, I'd have to put after
it everywhere to say, well,
this turned out to be true, and
this didn't turn out to be
true, and so I said, forget it,
I can't do it, so he said,
really, we could sell a book,
and I said, well, yeah, you can
sell a book, but I don't have
it, so we hired an editor
to go and try to do this, and
the editor, and we hired
another, we hired another, and
they all struck out, they
couldn't do it, you know, so
there is writing that
absolutely
doesn't fit the mind, that's
what I do, that you could not
make a book out of what I write
,
and I couldn't, and in Converse
, I couldn't change my writing
style to be a book writer,
why, because I would insist on
publishing what I write every
day, and when I do that,
I would, I would, that, when
you do that, when you approach
writing that way, it changes
the way you write, you tend to
write in the context of the
moment, and maybe somebody
wouldn't understand, like today
I said, you know, the coverage
of the Pope, well yesterday
I said, the coverage of the
Pope's death is ridiculous, we
're getting an infomercial
for the Catholic Church, you
know, and why is, where's the
balance to this, why aren't
they, you know, providing, why,
why don't we get an education
about the Catholic Church
right now, instead of just this
PR, each PR onslaught on the
Catholic, Catholic Church,
you know, today that comment
resonates with some people, and
of course other people they
hate me for saying that, but
that's fine, and I also said
today, you know, let's stop,
you know, talking about our
friends, let's make some new
enemies, you know, it's like
no fun if you're just joking
with your friends, you know, it
's better to actually piss some
people off, and then you kind
of know what you're actually
accomplishing something, but
you know, if you looked at that
, if a random person looked at
that a year from now, you
know, what the fuck was he
talking about, you know, I mean
, they wouldn't have, even
if they were alive and
listening and aware at that
moment, they'd forgotten it a
long
time, you know, there'll be a
new pope, he'll be different in
some way, you know, John Paul
will be dead, and he'll still
be dead, and you know, and we
will be looking at John,
so it's, you know, on the other
hand, you build these
relationships with people who
then become readers of your
blog, and then something really
interesting happens, okay,
after a while of doing that,
what happens is they start
their own blogs, okay, because
there's this thing that I call
the pipe-piper effect, is that
inevitably when you stand
up and do this blogging thing,
you will, if you do it well and
you do it consistently,
you will attract people who
then, at first aren't like that
comfortable with the idea
of doing it themselves, and
watching you do it, then one
day they get an idea, and they
say, "What do I want to do with
this idea?" and say, "Ah, I'll
put up a blog," and there
they go, now they've got, now
they're up and running, and so,
you know, it's, and it's,
I think, a great place to be,
you know, when you realize that
there's something, and we're
just going to go through this,
and all the different, sort of,
human endeavors, and each
one of them is going to have a
pipe-piper effect, like a food
strapper, the person who sort
of seeds the idea out there,
and given what you do and how
you've done it, I think, you
know, you'd be a great guy, I'm
sure Rick Blazer would agree
too, that you'd be a great,
I just saw Rick by the way, I
had lunch with him, like, three
days ago, and it was great,
you know, just brainstorming,
one idea after another, and I
think you'd be great at it,
I think that everything you're
doing, I mean, okay, you said
before that you get six dollars
sales for every book that you
write, every book that you sell
, right, there's six dollars
or eight dollars worth of
following business, but you
only need one dollar on that
book,
to begin with, so, I think that
's a big clue right there, right
?
Let's see, I've never figured
out a way to, well, I mean, we
have obviously capitalized
on the additional sale, part of
that.
How do you, what are the six-k
dollars, what are the sales?
Training consultant.
So you get some, you know, they
read the book and then they
come to take one of your
seminars
or something?
Yes, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, and it
continually, it generates a
little business along, we sell
them out, I mean, it's, the
book business is really a
strange deal because if a book
sells twenty-five thousand, it
's considered to be a best-sell,
I mean, are it a best-sell?
Well, this book has sold sixty-
five thousand bucks in the way
it's ever heard, I'm sixty-five
thousand copies, in the way it
's ever heard of the book,
except for those sixty-five
thousand
people.
Why is that?
Well, because it's never been
promoted, it's not stocked in
the book store so much, you
have to kind of run the book
down, it's all written out.
And still it produces, and so
it does everything it's
supposed to do.
So what would you like?
Would you like it to be well
done?
Would you like some more copies
?
Well, for strange reasons, yeah
, I would, but for strange
reasons, because it's a, this
little book is a, it's a
selling manual for salespeople,
I mean, it's like a Boy Scout
Max, there is a new controversy
in it, it's just like, this is
how you do get, and it's
laid out mechanically, because
that's the way I think of
mechanics, and it would help,
it would help a lot of people
make something of themselves,
because most salespeople are
really bad, they're really bad
when they do, they've read a
bunch of crappy books, which
is teaching them tricks, and
manipulation, and all that.
And people know they're being
tricked, and they've heard them
say, "Of course, of course."
And that's why people are so
circumspective.
It's like, watch my hands, you
know?
No, I know, it's like, but
would you actually be the sales
man, salesperson, who actually
likes their product, and wants
you to be happy with it, you
can tell them, and it's fun to
work with those people.
It's one of you to be happy
with the deal.
The salespeople that I have
done who are really good, they
liked what they were doing, and
they liked the long-term
relationships that they built
with their clients, and it wasn
't
all about money, it was about
communicating, and being
straight, and helping people do
the
best they can, solving their
problems.
So I've been doing it for 27
years, and it's been very
satisfying, because we put a
lot
of people on the road, and
people go, "Well, selling is a
sort of downer, I mean, you can
't
do anything else."
The fact of the matter is,
people who sell well, they don
't work as hard as everybody
else, they make a lot more
money, they live in the big
houses, and they drive the fast
cars, and they get the kids
educated, and their kids teeth
look good, and you know, so it
's
a good deal.
And I was just telling you
about everybody's sales, there
's no such thing as a profession
that doesn't involve a lot of
selling.
Not in this country.
Yeah.
This is not a country where
people come and seek you out
because you're a really smart
accountant.
That's right.
Now, it doesn't work that way.
It doesn't work that way.
There's a lot of myths around
that, and of course, it's not
about the sale, I'm not
a bad salesman.
I closed a multimillion dollar
deal selling a house in Wood
side, a friend of mine who
is a well, a very accomplished
salesperson.
He made lots and lots of money,
a friend of mine who can point
it out at that point that
I was a multimillion dollar
sales guy now.
And he said, "Wow, that's
really weird, haven't helped
with that."
And I watched myself do it, and
you know, I've learned how to
sell things, you know.
I've established, establishing
a standard, for example, is
totally sales.
I mean, you know, it's
technology, sure, the
technology, and to know what,
you know,
what choices to make, because
there are a lot of choices, is
based on experience.
That, you know, and, but even
so, even the most powerful
standard has mistakes in it,
you know.
I mean, the things that you
learn later, it wouldn't work
better if you had done it
another
way, you know.
But even so, there's no way to
change it.
You still use it, and it's fine
, it works, you know.
So there is technology to it,
but it's 99.99 percent, you
know, politics, I mean, that
politics, of course, is sales,
I mean, you know, it's how to
get the guy to do what
you want him to do, at the same
time, to feel that they're
doing what they want to do, you
know.
That there's a mutual, that's
good for everybody, and that's,
you know, it's about even being
or social species, and making
yourself feel good, and making
other people feel good.
They're related, sometimes, you
know, they are kind of who we
are, you know.
It's going to be great to have
a blog, I know, a few people
right off the bat who was, who
was like, like, the guy was the
only one before Robert Scoble,
who was at Microsoft, he used
to be, before he got into
technology, he was a camera
stirrer, and what, and he talks
about
it a lot, you know, he found it
easy to compete with the other
guys, because they were sort
of rushing the customer through
, and he didn't look at it that
way, he loved cameras, and
he is a naturally ultra gregar
ious person, he just, like, he
loves, well, he sounds corny,
but he loves people, I mean,
you know, you can see that, and
he doesn't have a whole
lot of tolerance for people who
won't put the time in, you know
, it's like, not every
minute has to be built, and
they had very loyal customers,
and they paid more, you know,
to get the cameras from him,
because they enjoyed working
with the chair, and so, you
know,
so it's, I think that, you know
, having more, like, marketing
and sales energy in the
supply sphere would be a very
good thing, because, and maybe
you'll be better at marketing
and sales.
Well, I look at what I do as
teaching communication,
probably more than sales. Sales
puts a kind
of a stigma on it, because
selling has a rather poor,
stinky kind of reputation in
our culture,
but actually selling well is
really nothing but
communicating well, and so, it
's these
communication skills that are
in the nut of what we do. We
call it sales training, because
nobody's going to pay us to
teach them how to be, how to
hold a conversation for that.
Yeah, yeah, right.
But that's what you're doing
anyway.
But that's what we're going to
do. We're doing, I tell, I tell
people, it's what we teach
is civilized conversations.
Well, maybe we ought to turn
the recording device. It still
feels like we're having a,
we're doing a show instead of
just having a conversation. So,
let's just wind this down
and then continue the
conversation. Just, could you
say what your e-mail address is
if you want to?
Yeah, Jerry, Jerry@Vast.com.
How do you spell that?
D-A-S-S.
Right, so that's how people can
get in touch with you if they
want to. I don't doubt that
there will be people who will
want to, and I'm going to help
you to get your blog up anyway.
Well, this morning, this Sunday
morning out here on the beach,
I think that's the way I'm
going to go.
Jerry's Beach blog for the
sales guy.
Well, you know, I used to write
, I've been writing for...
You want me to turn this off?
No.
Okay, we'll do that.
You want some coffee?
Yes.
Okay.
What are you taking?
I don't have sugar.
Okay, a little milk.
I have half and half.
Is that right?
Oh, yeah.
I've been working, I've been
writing for years and years,
and I used to write, I used to
write
short stories, short pieces,
all of that stuff.
Years ago, I used to write in
the Terraria Times, and all of
that was written.
Yeah, I used to write.
I never could figure out what
to do with that stuff.
I have seven or eight pieces
out of those days.
I would probably write in the
70s.
Yeah, I would probably write in
the 70s.
Yeah, I would probably write in
the 70s.
Yeah, I would probably write in
the 70s.
Yeah, I would probably write in
the 70s.
Yeah, I would probably write in
the 70s.
Yeah, I would probably write in
the 70s.
Yeah, I would probably write in
the 70s.
Yeah, I would probably write in
the 70s.
Yeah, I would probably write in
the 70s.
Yeah, I would probably write in
the 70s.
Yeah, I would probably write in
the 70s.
Yeah, I would probably write in
the 70s.
Yeah, I would probably write in
the 70s.
Yeah, I would probably write in
the 70s.
Yeah, I would probably write in
the 70s.
Yeah, I would probably write in
the 70s.
Yeah, I would probably write in
the 70s.
Yeah, I would probably write in
the 70s.
Yeah, I would probably write in
the 70s.
Yeah, I would probably write in
the 70s.
Yeah, I would probably write in
the 70s.
Yeah, I would probably write in
the 70s.
Yeah, I would probably write in
the 70s.
Yeah, I would probably write in
the 70s.
Yeah, I would probably write in
the 70s.
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Yeah, I would probably write in
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- Yeah, I think so.
Thanks everybody, see you soon.