Okay, we're live. Hi everybody.
Morning. This is Dave Weiner.
It's morning coffee notes
coming to you from 42nd Street
in New York, New York
I'm here with Mike. Mike, what
's your last name? Uh, Colchini.
Say that again? Colchini. Colch
ini. Mike is the editor of H
acking Netflix
Weblog, a very excellent weblog
that has just like huge flow.
So if you ever want to get some
flow for your blog
You got to grevel to Mike and
maybe he'll point to you. And
then Ryan, Ryan, what's your
last name? Sigir.
Okay, and I'm not gonna try
that. You guys, you, oh anyway,
so how did we all meet?
Steve Rebell who has the micro
persuasion blog, he's stuck on
a train on his way into Grand
Central Station and
he's gonna call
sometime soon and
he'll join us and in the
meantime
What should we talk about?
What's, you're a blogger, right
? Yeah, we're all three of us
are bloggers. So I know what
his blog is about. What's yours
about?
It's orbicast with all things
satellite radio. Oh cool. Cover
Sirius XM.
Are you interested? Do you have
an interest in satellite radio?
Oh, yeah.
Sort of a crazy little passion.
Is that right? Yeah.
So how long have you been doing
it? Since late October actually
.
It's taken off like crazy. It's
just that it's amazing that a
number of people that really
want to, they're hungry for
information on it.
Is that right? So do you like
get them information on that?
Oh, yeah, it's like
constantly all day long and
that's pretty much what I'm
doing. Is that right? Oh, you
see like you don't have a day
job, that's your job?
No, I don't have a day job.
Yeah, cause you lost it, should
you leave it all day long? No,
no, no, no.
All these people in here, we're
in a starbomb, sorry, all these
people are staring at us
wondering, well, maybe these
are like a big-time radio show
or something.
It's just a podcast. I love
this setup. So, yeah. Oh, well,
tell them about it. What do you
see? What does it look like to
you?
So, this is like a little
conference
conference microphone. Yeah, it
's like designed for a
conference room table. So you
get the 360. It's sort of like
a dingus.
It's got a radius. I'll, maybe
I'll put a picture of this up
here, but it sort of projects
up and down.
So, actually, it would be kind
of better if it was like maybe
10 inches. So should we just
lower it?
But it doesn't, actually, maybe
that would be better, but see,
here's the, you can see the
graph there, right?
So it's picking up my voice
pretty well. You can say
something. Oh, hey. A little
bit. Yeah, see, there you go.
So, tell us about hacking
Netflix. What's that like?
It's been interesting. I
don't know. I've been doing
this almost a year and a half
and
it's kind of surprised me where
it's gone. Yeah, it's
well, it was a deliberate thing
on your part. You wanted to
make a blog that would have a
large
audience or a lot of people
meeting it.
Actually, I didn't.
It's just what it was. It was
the Monday. The Monday release
is what's new.
Yeah, it was news. I actually
wanted to explore what was
going on with Netflix.
They're a very private company
and I sort of want to hack the
company, you know, sort of
figure out what's going on.
It's a stupid domain name.
It's a great domain name.
I criticized it from day one on
it.
Why? What's wrong with it?
Well, it sounds like amateur.
She's really like hacking
Netflix. What does that mean?
Well, it's like rocking Netflix
, but in the 21st century.
Exactly.
How's Netflix doing?
They're doing really well. They
just announced that they passed
the 3 million subscriber mark
based on the competition from
Blockbuster.
They're still managing to grow
despite pretty hardcore
competition.
Blockbuster is spending a ton
of money acquiring new
customers and Netflix is still
growing.
I haven't switched. I still use
Netflix. I tend to be pretty
loyal. I think the service is
good.
I know I've read on some other
blogs like John Robb has a blog
where he basically said Netflix
's toast that they can't.
The turnaround is very bad now.
They had some problems in early
January, February, and it's
part of their... they go
through prosperits.
And when you had that many
members, you do have some movie
allocation problems, but I'm
hearing double the problems
from Blockbuster right now.
Of course. Start-up must be
like, yeah. Have you ever
actually seen an Netflix
facility?
No, no. They've actually
invited me out, though.
They have one in New York, don
't they?
There's one in Queens.
In Flushing.
Yeah, and I'm actually in Flus
hing every once in a while, but
they're very secretive.
They've only released a few
photos of the distribution
centers.
Really? But you could go inside
and take a look at the view
monitor. They invited you to do
that?
Well, they invited me to the
corporate headquarters.
So there's something... some
secret sauce inside that
distribution center, huh?
Well, they're starting to
release information about it,
so they've shown actual
pictures of people stuffing the
envelopes and things like that.
They kind of visualized what it
must be like.
Somebody was telling me, maybe
it was you, that they have some
kind of deal with the post
office,
so that when you return the
envelope, it scans it at the
post office, and that goes on
their computer,
and they send you something out
, a new one out, before it
actually arrives.
Well, actually...
Is that true, or...?
From what I understand, it's
currently not true.
I think they've tested it in
the past.
Blockbuster is supposedly doing
that. It's wrecking havoc.
I've got people that are
recording five movies out of
the three-hour plan right now.
Because they're erroneous
positives, or something like
that.
Yeah, they're getting the movie
scan, so we're seeing all kinds
of weirdness going on.
But from what I understand, the
source of Netflix, they don't
do that.
So it seems like it must be,
like, a temporary...
This whole idea of mailing
around these DVDs, you know,
seems like a sort of an anach
ronistic thing
that, given a few more years,
it'll all be networked.
This is... Steve, I gotta get
it. Hold on.
Why don't you...? Oh, whatever.
Steve, how you doing?
Okay.
Okay, we're... Do you know...?
We're live reporting Steve Ra
vel.
Hold on.
Dave's leaving, so maybe I'll
read and address his first
question.
I started the blog, since he
can't hear it, he won't be
modest.
I started the blog because we
came from a software company,
and I actually worked together
a software company.
You know, we're the global
building, which used to be
called the global building.
Dave said to actually
understand blogging, you should
read 50 blogs and start one.
And I just started wanting a
company I'm passionate about,
and I thought that was really
important, you know, to learn
blogging.
And this is sort of the
experiment going awry.
It's sort of the automatic
thing to want to talk to this
microphone.
This little stick just standing
right on the table, and you
have to look at it and talk to
it.
Yeah.
Note your voice level.
Okay, good.
Good.
So that was a little dramatic
thing.
Steve's in New York now, and
Steve Ravel, PR blogger...
PR God, yes.
is going to be joining us soon.
So what were you guys talking
about while I was, otherwise,
occupied?
Oh, I readjusted your first
question about why I started...
Why I started hacking Netflix.
I readjusted your first
question.
Oh, why did you do that?
Because we came from a software
company.
There were a couple other
people involved,
so we started a software
company that sold it to people
here in New York.
You guys used to work together
then?
Yeah, for years.
Years.
They're like your buddies.
Yeah.
And we encourage each other to
blog and stuff like that.
You only know something funny.
We were sitting around at a
meeting at my work now.
You know how blogging has
spread?
It's sort of this person-to-
person thing we were talking
about,
you know, spreading podcasts.
Well, they don't know anything
about it.
Well, here's what I mean.
See what I mean?
Well, let me just say this.
Before we started, I said, "Let
's not do anything.
Let's not talk at all, because
it'll screw up the whole thing
."
But unfortunately, yeah, we did
.
Well, no, no, no.
What I'm saying is we were
sitting around at a product
manager meeting
where we were talking about
having another blog for our
company.
Right.
Our CEO blogs.
The guy next to me blogs.
The guy across us has a blog
for his youth group.
And another guy has a blog he's
starting up about New York City
.
So there's six bloggers and out
of six people.
What company is this?
It's Indexed Stock Imagery in
New York.
It's a stock photo agency.
Right, right.
So blogging, it's fair to say
it's caught on.
Oh, yeah.
And does anybody worry about
how many people are reading
their blogs?
I don't, you know, I don't
worry about it.
I'd like to watch it.
You worry about it.
Well.
Knacking Netflix.
Hey, there he is.
Steve.
Steveville.
Say hi to the folks at home.
Hello, everyone.
I...
What's your name?
My name is Steve Herbell.
What's the name of your blog?
My name and my blog is Micro
Persuasion.
But doesn't everybody know that
already?
Not everybody.
There must be somebody who
doesn't know that.
So Steve, you're going to get
...
Oh, you found this?
Yeah.
Well, that's a sexy backpack
you're talking about.
Thank you.
I have to be different.
So you're going to get some
coffee?
I am.
Yes.
Okay.
We'll be ready for you.
I'll have a question ready for
you.
Oh, okay.
That's not good.
Nice surprise, Steve.
That was Steve Rebell,
everybody.
Everybody.
So everybody at your company at
this meeting, they all have
blogs.
Oh, yeah.
One of them is interesting.
It's called Garage Spin.
What?
Garage Spin.
I've talked to a lot of people
about blogging.
I've talked to people on the
train.
I've done presentations of blog
ging now.
He's a musician.
He wants to record an album.
When I talked to him, he didn't
know how to market his album.
So I told him, "Blog the
process.
Blog the tools you use.
Blog the thing that you're
going through."
I want to learn about it.
And he's crossing the podcast.
I've been pushing him very hard
.
I'm like, "Dude, podcast.
This is a beautiful outlet,
especially for the masses of
people who just want to be
musicians and want to have
exposure.
That's podcasting.
You can just instantly just
deliver all your...
So do you do it?
Yeah.
Garage Spin's up and running.
Yeah.
He's working on the blog.
He's one of the people that's
really concerned about how much
traffic is coming in or
whatever.
I think everyone who's starting
off just wants to know.
Is there an audience to what I
'm talking about?
I don't think it's true of
everybody.
My father, for example, he's a
very talkative guy.
It's really hard to get a word
in it.
But he said, "I have nothing to
say.
What would I say?"
That you hear a lot.
It's like, "I don't know.
I wouldn't have anything to say
."
And so my answer to that is, "
Well, just..."
And those people are certainly
not worried about how many
people are going to read their
blog.
Their concern is the other end
of it, is that all of a sudden
everybody's going to be reading
my blog and I'm not going to
look good.
I'm really stupid, right?
That's true.
So what I say to people like
that is I say, "Well, just go
ahead and start the blog and
post something really, really
insipid and stupid."
It's like, "Hi, this is my blog
."
And then just don't do anything
.
Leave alone.
And then someday you'll be in
the shower and an idea will hit
you.
And you'll go, "Oh, God, I wish
I could just get this out to
the world."
And then that's when you go
post something on your blog,
right?
And that sort of gets the
process going.
And that really has helped a
lot.
I've found a lot of people sort
of get over the first initial
hump.
But if you have to...
It's sort of like, what's a
good way writers get this
question all the time?
It's like, "Okay, I want to
write something.
How do I go about doing it?"
And a writer will say, "Just
write it."
The only way to write is to
actually write.
You can't prepare to write.
Same thing is true with podcast
ing.
So you were saying before, you
're worried about the production
.
That, to me, is the same kind
of concern that my father had.
He said, "Well, I'm afraid I
don't have anything to say."
Well, the thing is that the
good news is the first time you
do a podcast,
nobody's gonna listen to it
anyway.
So what's the problem?
Look as bad as you want to look
.
I listened to my first podcast.
It's pretty embarrassing.
I pause at this moment and say,
"Well, gosh, I think I better
explain what I'm doing here."
And then, without any segue at
all, after I'm finished
explaining what I'm doing,
I just start reading from my
notes.
It's like, "Oh, I'm getting my
picture taken."
So anyway, Steve Rubell, who
actually looks different from
the way...
I mean, you look the same, but
you look different from what
you look on your blog.
Whether I look better online or
...
There's no better...
I'm not saying better or worse.
It's just different.
Steve has this big picture of
himself right there in the
upper corner,
which probably is good PR,
right?
I guess so.
So tell us about your blog and
how you got started blogging,
Steve.
When did you start?
MicroPersuasion?
Is that the URL?
Yes, it's micropersuasion.com.
Okay.
I would say about a year and a
half ago, I started to read
blogs aggressively through RSS
Feeds.
I saw that we're having a major
impact on my reading habits.
I started working with clients
to launch blogs in my PR firm
in early 2004.
And then about a year ago, I
woke up one Sunday morning and
I said,
"What's going on here?
I'm working with clients and
helping them blog.
I'm reading you, I'm reading
Scoville, and I'm learning so
much.
So I think I should have a blog
also.
Obviously.
Yeah, obviously, right?
Duh.
You know?
And you know...
We're like religious evangel
ists, aren't we?
It's really shameless.
And so I started to...
So we get you to drink the Kool
-Aid and then your job is to go
out and get everybody else.
It's like a cult, right?
You know?
Yeah.
I'm sorry.
We were...
Of course, I'm going to say now
, we were talking about this
before, right?
It's like I was listening to a
podcast this morning with Ron
Bloom and Adam Curry.
And they were talking about the
mechanics of building a really
big audience for podcasts.
And I was sort of shaking my
head as I was listening to it.
I was going, "No, no, that's
not how it works."
It's like a pyramid scheme.
And you don't need to reach 10
million people in one shot with
your message.
What you need?
No, you...
I mean, actually, you don't
need to do anything.
But if you want the thing to
grow, it's just done, you know,
one evangelist at a time.
Basically, you know, my father
was a really interesting
experience.
I mean, he...
Before he did a podcast, he
said, "Well, you know, I would
never do a podcast about
everything you'd say."
Now that he's done one, he's
got a billion ideas of things
that he wants to talk about.
He's telling everybody...
Of course, I'm telling
everybody about it.
My brother's telling everybody
about it.
So all of a sudden, there's a
whole other group of people
that are getting infected with
the disease,
or maybe it's not a disease,
but that's...
It's all pipe, piper, pyramid
scheme, evangelism, two-tier
marketing, you know, the whole
nine yards, right?
It's like Amway, right?
It's like Amway.
Exactly, except there's no
money in it.
It's just for love, basically.
I disagree with the money part.
I'm getting some black glory.
I disagree, too.
There is money in it.
Of course, there is.
I mean, actually, there's a lot
more money in it than you can
get with advertising.
Yeah.
There's money from all
different kinds of aspects, too
, because if you look at it, I'm
making money from it, too.
Right.
By winning clients.
But for your clients, how much
money do they spend to try to
get the world to know who they
are, right?
That's why they hired you.
That's right.
And it's an extension.
So if a blog can help you get
better known, then aren't you
making money?
It's another tool we're going
to use.
I mean, we launched a practice
under the name Microphone.
It's raising a Kruppercat's
microphone.
That really helps companies.
What does it mean?
Micro persuasion?
Yeah.
When I launched the name, to me
that meant that there are
millions of small voices, micro
voices, that have just as much
influence as the mass voices.
Yep.
They are the mass, right?
Which we pay for.
I mean, you pay for mass persu
asion.
You pay for, you know, I mean,
a hit on Good Morning America
or you're a client or whatever.
But the reality is that you
have, you know, you get a hit
on a Scobalizer or a Slash God.
Your case, what you're doing is
amazing, right?
I mean, I go and I, personally,
you're in every single
PowerPoint that I show.
Because on this topic, which is
a lot.
His blog is an interesting blog
.
Because you Google Netflix, you
're the third one.
You took ownership of Netflix,
basically.
Yeah.
They didn't have a blog
presence and you created one
for them.
You know how powerful this
whole system is?
On Tuesday, I posted Block
buster's customer service number
.
And on Monday, I posted it.
And by Wednesday, it was the
number one hit for Blockbuster
800.
That's two days later.
So I'm going after Blockbuster
's today.
So, it's bizarre.
And this leads to a different
topic, if I could ask this.
Where do you want to go?
Well, I wonder if Google One
Day is going to wake up.
And we're going to say, we're
giving these blogs too much
power.
Turn it off.
Yeah.
We're going to make a change.
I don't know.
Well, go on with that.
Well...
What's your concern?
Why is that a concern to you?
Well, I hope they don't.
Because...
But I don't think it should be
a concern.
I mean, basically...
Well, I'm sorry.
Go ahead.
I don't want to...
Well, it's a concern because I
think that that's, right now,
one of the...
One of the factors that's going
to help push blocking your main
stream.
What is?
The Google juice.
I don't know if I don't agree
with you because...
Well, let me tell you why.
If I may.
Yeah, sure.
The companies need comfort.
Okay?
The buying scene.
So, are they going to buy into
blogs?
I don't know.
But if you try it to search
engine marketing, if you try it
to optimization, that's
something
they're buying right now.
Now, maybe in a year, that won
't be true.
They'll buy it no matter what.
But, right now, they're saying,
okay, so what's this getting?
And when I show them the Google
juice, that's like, immediately
they get it?
Yeah.
And I say, okay, I understand.
Yeah.
So, Google makes that change
that, I think, reduces the
direct influence.
Okay.
Can I respond?
Yeah.
Okay.
I don't care whether your
companies have blogs or not.
First of all.
So, it means absolutely nothing
to me one way or the other
whether they do it or they don
't.
Second of all is that there's a
real big danger in relying too
heavily on sexualization.
The whole point of blogging was
to take, you know, to decentral
ize to the extent that
we're all sort of like looking
to Google for approval.
We're now going back to the old
system.
It's like, you know, okay, we
traded in one boss for another.
They used to be, you know, what
anointed credibility was
getting on the radio or getting
quoted
in the New York Times.
Today, you know, fuck it.
I don't care.
I really honestly don't care
whether I get quoted in the New
York Times.
I mean, maybe a little bit.
My parents read it.
So, it's like, it's good for
family relations, but it doesn
't build flow for me.
They very rarely get the story
right.
You know, all the objective
things, reasons why you might
care about that seem to have
faded now used to be that that
was a very big deal.
Now today that's been replaced
by Google.
But someday...
I'm just quite like, by the way
, like 300 PR firms out of
business.
I didn't do it.
No, no, no.
I didn't do it.
No, no, not me.
No, PR is in crisis of course.
I mean, although PR has a
chance to get back to its roots
.
The irony of the name PR was,
what did it stand for?
Public relations, right?
But you didn't like, market to
the public.
You marketed it to the press.
Why don't we say it really has
real meaning?
But that's not public, you know
.
They were sort of anything but
the public.
They were elitists.
They were, you know, the king
makers.
They were, you know, gate
keepers, all the rest of that
stuff.
Now, like you said, you get to
do the job that you're always
supposed to do.
So, if your clients don't want
to do it vlogging, if it doesn
't get them Google juice, that's
your problem.
That's where it's locked in
wide.
I think you have to sell it.
And one of the ways you sell it
to them, we sell the whole Clut
rain module.
Do you?
Oh, no.
You have a Clutrain module?
Mantra.
Oh, Mantra.
I thought you said, well, we
can sell you the module.
No, I had a Clutrain module.
I've been making a lot of money
.
Here's the Clutrain, take a
ride with me.
Mantra is.
That's great.
We sell it.
I mean, the human voice and the
corporate speaker is dying.
And I mean, I believe that.
Do they buy it?
That's the bad.
No, no, they don't buy it.
Number two is, do they get it?
No, they don't get it.
Are they going to try to use it
and usurp it and pretend they
're doing it?
Maybe, right?
No, I wouldn't.
Otherwise, you wouldn't.
At least personally, I wouldn't
work with them.
You wouldn't do that, right?
Good for you.
That means that you have a soul
.
Congratulations.
Well, I've been freaking the K
ool-Aid one.
That's the other way of looking
at it.
Yeah.
I think of it as a soul.
You think of it as Kool-Aid.
Okay, great.
You're a distributor.
Right.
Me too.
I'm weighing all the way.
That's right.
That's cool.
So, do you enjoy your work?
I love what I do.
You love what I do?
I love what I do more so now
than I ever have.
I've been in PR for 15 years.
I always loved it.
I guess I'm a rare bird.
I think I was a PR person in a
former life.
Yeah, I think in some ways you
went down.
I've been in PR for 15 years.
I always loved it.
I guess I'm a rare bird.
But.
I think I was a PR person in a
former life.
Yeah.
I think in some ways you went
down.
Absolutely.
Except nobody pays me.
That's right.
Damn it.
Somehow we got to figure out
that one.
Would you travel across the
country and do a great thing?
I wish.
I mean, doesn't everybody live
to be Dave Warner?
I mean, it's just like.
Is that right?
Really?
It's not so great.
I think you embody like every
male in the 30s and 40s and 50s
.
Well, I waited a long time for
you to do this.
I, you know, sort of like put
down roots and, you know, got
bored out of my mind.
In Silicon Valley.
Yeah.
It was either do it now or
never do it.
Yeah.
Well, I'm having a good time.
I'm having a good time.
You know, all my ideas now have
taken root.
And, you know, and so they're
not considered, you know, all
that far out anymore.
So what's next?
Me?
Yeah, that's what I like.
Well, right now, I haven't
really been all that secretive
about it.
I mean, basically, I think in
terms of formats and protocols,
it's OPML.
OPML comes as the next layer up
after RSS.
I mean, you know, that's the
role OPML plays right now is,
you know, sort of, it's where,
you know, it's doing lists of
subscriptions, right?
And so it can be used for book
mark, it can be used for
directories, it can be used for
presentations, it can be used
for thinking, for organizing
and planning.
And it can actually is pretty
good for group wear.
And it sort of goes in a lot of
different, and then if you take
that and like mix it in
with the internet and all the,
you know, basic sort of simple
networking like HTML has, you
know, where you can link from
one place to another, it gets
pretty powerful, you know.
So I've been wanting to do this
.
I mean, I got started on doing
it in early 2002.
And then I, you know, I got
sick and then I couldn't do it.
But everything down and sort of
, you know, reset everything and
figure out what I was
really doing and quit smoking.
Now I'm losing weight.
That's the big thing, right?
I'm losing weight and getting
sick.
That's why Florida has been
really good for me and
continues to be.
So you're retiring to Florida?
I don't think there's any
retirement about it.
No, I'm not retiring, but
Florida is kind of, you know,
it's one of these places where
I've like always wanted to like
be there for some extended
period of time.
I wanted to live at the beach
and, you know, that's another
one of those things.
Like, you know, okay, like when
were you planning on doing it?
You know, it's either like do
it now or maybe you don't ever
get to do it.
So, yeah, I'm trying to create
a lifestyle at the same time.
There's a lot, you know, if I
want to do a business and like
you said, basically the
ideas are becoming acceptable
now.
And if I wanted to really build
a development team today, I
could do it.
I raised money to do it and,
you know, I don't know if I
could do that in Florida.
I might try to make this
interview with you as much as I
can with us.
The trip is that it's not
really an interview.
It's more of a conversation.
Yeah, I mean, it's like let's
talk about the clue train,
right?
The clue train says that there
's like no top or bottom.
It's not like, you know, like,
you know, two-tier or whatever.
We're just hanging out here.
Well, something I want to ask
you actually, I could, is, and
I know I'm, I know I'm totally
just, but the question's on the
line.
Go ahead.
Like RSS.
Yeah.
I mean, we all believe it.
We all use it.
We all, right?
Okay.
And when we live in the aggreg
ators, we take, we walk out on
that street ten feet.
Yeah.
Pull up ten people and read
them.
And not one.
I don't know.
No present.
We'll probably know what RSS is
.
Maybe they've heard it.
Okay.
Can you get in trouble for
doing that?
Yeah, I can do that.
So what's the point?
Well, the point I'm making is
that, or question, is that how
do we, I mean, I think that we
're
all evangelists here for RSS.
But why?
Why do you have to be something
for everybody?
This is what, I get asked that,
this gets, you know, comes up
all the time, right?
And five years ago or three
years ago, four guys could be
sitting at a table in a
Starbucks
on 42nd Street and none of them
would have heard of RSS.
Today, all of them have and
they all use it, right?
So that's an awful lot of
growth right there, okay?
It's fast.
Yeah.
And maybe five years from now,
you'll go out on 42nd Street
and they'll all be talking
about RSS and how, you know,
their company is adopting it
across the board and how, you
know, they're going to the next
thing.
Some guys are talking about
this thing called OPML and they
're not sure what it is or
whatever.
And I feel like it's like when
I talk about the web.
But that's the way it should
always be, Steve.
There should always be
something new happening that,
you know, that is making its
way through,
you know, our civilization.
It should always be.
If it ever stops being that way
, then you should be, like,
worried.
Not worried that people don't
know.
I'm worried that people think
it's too hard.
It is too hard.
Right.
Maybe that's the answer to that
one.
And how does it get easier is a
really interesting question.
It's not a technological
question.
It's a human question.
It's a political question.
It's people putting their pride
aside and deciding to work
together a question.
And, you know, there's very
little of that.
Once RSS became, you know,
somewhat successful, all of a
sudden a lot of people wanted
to
take it over and own it.
And then they, you know, so
they could split it in two, but
they could never make the whole
thing go the way they wanted it
to go.
The only way for that to happen
is for people to drop their
pride and say, okay, I'm going
to do it the way you want to do
it.
There has to be an awful lot of
that happening.
And it's not happening.
And look what happened with
Yahoo.
They have this ugly, you know,
little graphic that they ask
every blogger to put on their
site.
Right.
Well, I won't do it.
You know, I refuse to do it
because I think it's just a
tiny little bit of working
together
there.
We can solve that problem and
make it easy for, you know, for
anybody to be in that space.
Of course, their attitude is we
're the only aggregator out
there, right?
No.
Well, they've made it easier
for my mom to read blogs.
She doesn't know their blogs.
And I just set up a couple of
beats for her.
Yeah.
And now she goes through.
Right.
But why does it have to be
specific to Yahoo?
You can use that.
Well, they're the ones that, I
think they have one of the
better interfaces for reading
for
someone who's not technical.
What if somebody has a better
one for people who are non-
technical?
Let's write one.
Why don't we create one?
There's a need.
But then, you know, do you see
my point is that just the tini
est little bit of working
together,
we couldn't get it.
You know, I tried approaching
them privately.
They wouldn't respond.
I tried asking them that I saw
a guy from Yahoo talking about
their aggregator at a
conference.
I raised my hand.
I said, hey, how about working
with everybody else?
They sort of snickered.
Like, well, why should we do
that?
And then I called them out.
I called the Yahoo problem on
scripting news.
Escalated up the next level.
Total silence, you know.
I mean, you know, that's bad.
I mean, you know, I think what
they think is that I'm jealous
in some way or, you know,
I'm pissed off or whatever.
Yeah, I'm pissed off, but that
's not insurmountable.
I can easily get a swage, you
know.
I found out from Scobley
yesterday that these guys at
Microsoft are scared of me.
And I said to them, I said,
well, that's pretty good.
It's kind of like, how could
Nixon have ever opened up
relations with China if they
weren't scared of him?
That's quite a comparison, Nick
y.
What?
Oh, yeah.
Oops.
Gee, where should we go with
that?
Just so you know, Dave's
holding up his fingers on the
inside of his head.
Like, bring my shoulders up.
We need video casting.
Yeah, let's go.
Oh, it's a good thing Mark Pil
grim isn't vlogging anymore
because he'd have a field day
with that.
Oh, yeah.
Sorry.
Oops, that was the wrong thing
to say.
Anyway.
I might come back.
Yeah, so working together would
be good.
I don't know.
I think that it's also, we've
got this problem with content
modification and what Google's
doing with AutoLink.
And I think that's terrible.
And, you know, it's a radical
ization and commercialization.
A totally unnecessary
commercialization of the web.
And you know what's coming next
.
They've got a browser
involvement.
Just buy another Mozilla
program or just a job to Google
this week.
Yeah.
And the venture, that's right.
And a venture capitalist in
Silicon Valley funded the
original guy who worked on
Firefox.
You know what these guys are
doing there?
They're getting ready to put
ads, our ads, if you have ads,
are going to move out of your
page and into their Chrome.
And you're going to get bootk
its.
And they're going to make all
the money.
And then the next thing is they
're going to sell out to the
Christian right.
And then all of a sudden we're
all going to become Bush
supporters.
Jim Bush in 2008, all the way.
That'll be fun.
Jason Calcanus is good about
calling out people that do that
though.
I mean, he's got 70 web logs
now.
And he's really, anytime
somebody comes up with these
brilliant business plans to,
you know, take the content that
we all write.
I mean, you know, we spend a
lot of energy on this and they
slap an ad on it and expect to
make it get rich on it.
Really, I wasn't aware that he
was doing that.
Yeah, he's called, you should
check out his blog.
He really calls out these guys.
The Nano Publishing Blog?
That's what I mean.
I subscribe to it.
It's Jason Calcanus.
Oh, yeah, I don't subscribe to
it.
It's really good. He calls
these guys out.
He's sat at South by Southwest,
I think, at one of the
conferences.
They know what was it.
I remember that conference.
Of course his bread and butter
depends on them not doing that.
Well, ours too to some degree.
I don't think they should slap
ads on it.
Micropersuasion, Orbitcast.
No, without there being some
sort of rush here.
What's the worst example of
that happening?
Who's doing the worst?
Well, there's concern that blog
lines will do it.
I mean, we're all syndicated in
blog lines.
I mean, Dave, you've got about
3,000 subscribers there.
I'm worried for ads on there
without sharing the revenue
back with us.
That's why, like, Google is at
least they give us some pitt
ance of the revenue.
See, I'm not that concerned
about that.
What if they're making money
off your content?
You could also not change the
feed.
I'd like to be able to change
my feed and say...
I'm more concerned when they
change what I say.
You know, when they make me out
to, you know, when they point
to Amazon for my content,
and I don't point to Amazon as
a matter of principle because
they're patent abusers,
and when they change my content
to point to Amazon,
then I feel you really used.
I mean, feel betrayed, and
specifically when it happens
for Google
because of what we were saying
before is, like,
that's why you don't want to
depend too heavily on them
because they'll break your
heart.
I mean, you know, this was the
problem with centralization,
is there was no incentive for
them to listen to us, right?
And if there's only one Google,
well, then why should they care
what we think?
There is going to be a market
that kind of evolves where
people will take either content
that people are making
available free and changing,
and I think companies will try
to push the boundaries in doing
that.
One of the areas I'm concerned
about is fake blogs, right?
So companies are doing that,
right?
But I can easily see somebody
creating what I call a fake-f
ake blog,
which is basically somebody
saying, "Well, you know what? I
don't like Starbucks,
so I'm going to create a fake
blog and pretend it's Starbucks
."
I've done one of those. I don't
want to tell you what it is.
It hasn't quite percolated
through Google yet.
I don't want to tell you what
it is. I don't want to tell you
what it is.
But a fake-fake blog?
Yeah, I understand the concept.
You know, where it's like, you
know, and you might think it's
the company trying to do that.
Also, I'm wondering if some of
these fake blogs are
intentionally fake,
because they know it's just
good PR, not good PR, but they
know it's bad.
What do you mean by that?
Well, like the McDonald's
Lincoln Park blog. Did you hear
about that?
Yeah.
Okay.
FCP.
So I'm wondering if McDonald's
said, you know, some companies
believe there's no such thing
as bad PR.
Right.
So they're going to get to
create online bots.
So I'm wondering if McDonald's,
one of two things happened.
Either they said, "Yeah, we're
going to do this blog thing. We
'll do it this way."
Right.
And they really were totally
naive.
Or.
Or they were smart as hell.
Right.
They said, "They're going to be
outraged by this, but we'll get
a lot of orders."
We'll get all this link up, and
we'll get all this possible.
Well, did it work? Did it get
people to go?
Got people talking?
We're talking about it right
now.
Yeah, that's right.
Creep of listening.
I'm being accused of being a sh
ill.
McDonald's has, you know, I've
written about this a lot when I
'm traveling.
You know, McDonald's, this was
a big secret.
I put something on my blog and
said, "Boy, if McDonald's were
really serious about Wi-Fi,
you know, they could clean up."
And then somebody said, "What
the fuck are you talking about?
Of course it's serious about Wi
-Fi.
Look at the map."
And so they sent me a board to
the map.
And if there aren't, I mean,
every McDonald's all across the
country has Wi-Fi.
So if they wanted to get blog-
type people interested in
McDonald's, one simple way to
do it would be
to put a little sign on the
door that says, "Take out your
laptop and try it out, because
it works."
This is like, well, Starbucks
has become the de facto hangout
.
Absolutely.
Well, yeah, I was, you know,
Keith Tier, Keith, he did real
names.
And sort of Silicon Valley
entrepreneur started Cyber,
Siberia, basically the first
cybercap
in Britain, in London.
And, you know, we were talking
about that the other day and
basically agreed that this
is what cybercap plays became,
is Starbucks, right?
I mean, you know, it went the
other way.
Instead of a new chain, I think
we'll see more and more of it.
That's McDonald's.
I mean, you know, there aren't
any Starbucks.
You know, there's Starbucks on
the two coasts in Chicago.
And that's it.
You know, in big cities, there
's Starbucks.
But if you're like driving
cross-country, if you're in
like a red state somewhere,
forget
it.
McDonald's is like the only
place that has Wi-Fi.
And now I have another reason
not to go to a red state.
It's no Starbucks.
No.
Yeah, right.
Well, it's true.
You know, my first cross-
country trip, driving from Reno,
Nevada to Denver, Colorado, not
one Starbucks.
I got it.
You win?
Oh, I drink this stuff every
day.
No, you know what the solution
is?
No.
Oh, I think the solution is
really quite to my big checkery
.
There's an answer to this,
which is McDonald's iced tea,
unsweet iced tea.
It's really pretty good.
It's bloated with caffeine.
It's very refreshing.
And it's quite affordable.
Well, he's an influence.
So I'm going to try it.
Yeah.
It sold me on McDonald's.
What?
It sold me on McDonald's.
It's great.
I like it better.
The only problem is you have to
smell the smell of McDonald's.
That's the problem.
You don't want to hang out in a
McDonald's and put on your
laptop.
The Wi-Fi is pretty good, and
it's $49 a month.
Do you know if it's greasy?
Oh, yeah.
Well, you know, people, what
was it?
Madge Weinstein said, "Oh, sure
.
We know he's going for the iced
tea.
Ha, ha, ha."
He's, you know, a few quarter-p
atter with cheese or whatever.
He never did that.
I like the chicken selects.
Gained at least 20 pounds off
chicken selects.
I stopped eating that.
But I don't do that anymore.
Salads and salmon.
That's me, you know.
Yeah, that would be nice if
they had a chain of restaurants
where you could go.
And I don't care if it costs 10
bucks, you know.
Have you tried the Verizon, the
new, like, broadband service
they have in the cities?
I don't know about that.
They have a city.
They now offer up to $600K
first in, like, 15 major cities
.
$80 bucks.
Give it to you.
$80 bucks for what?
$80 bucks a month.
Flat.
Where do you get access?
Anywhere.
The whole city.
It's a card you plug in your
notebook.
Oh, really?
Yeah.
Again, I hate to plug Jason Cal
canis twice in one podcast, but
he has it.
Sure.
He raves about it.
He's got me wanting it so bad.
Because I want to post.
But it's $600K.
So is it a cellular modem thing
?
Yeah, it's a cellular modem.
Yeah.
Oh, really?
Yeah.
And it's how much a month?
$80.
It's only a major city, so.
On top of a $30 Wi-Fi canada.
On top of what?
On top of a $30 a month Wi-Fi
canada, which I have here with
T-Mobile.
But why would you even need
that?
Well, you locked in for a while
.
Well, and then you wouldn't
need it at home either if you
live in that area, right?
Yes.
Although it doesn't go all the
way up, right?
I would have to stick some.
You know, they have a Wi-Fi at
Brian Park, right?
Yes.
Yeah.
All over the place.
Yeah.
All over the place.
So if I wanted to go, I'd save
six bucks instead of uploading
this podcast.
I mean, I'm going to upload
this podcast right after we're
done, basically.
You know, so it's like going to
be instant broadcast journalism
.
You're a media star now, Steve.
I am?
How do you feel about that?
That's scary.
This guy, Mike is the star.
Yeah, Mike is.
I've done like 20 interviews.
You've done over 100.
I've done so many.
It's crazy.
But isn't it a lot that the
media want to talk to a PR
person?
I mean, that the media want to
interview a PR person.
Yeah.
I mean, it's just irony.
Who?
Well.
Who wants to interview a PR
person?
Well, I've done a lot of
interviews.
Oh, you do?
That's true.
I did four just this week.
Isn't that a conflict of
interest?
Not yet.
I'm actually able to.
It's getting close to that, huh
?
No, because I've moved now.
But isn't your job to try to
get in those interviews for
your clients?
Aren't you competing with your
clients?
Not anymore, because I'm now
working now.
I would say, I would say 80% of
my job now is to work with
clients on blogging and
strategies
and also building a whole side
of our business.
So by becoming more of a
visible expert on this stuff,
you're helping generate
business
for your firm.
Exactly.
Which is exactly what you're
saying to your clients is that
by becoming an expert in your
own area, by letting everybody
know that you know the most
about whatever it is that
you do, that that just can't
help but help your business,
right?
I wouldn't say I know the most.
I think I learn from the people
who do.
But I don't know any other blog
ging PR person.
You're the only one I know.
There are 140 of them.
I understand, but I'm telling
you, it's not getting any easy
data, Steve.
And I'm sure you're aware of
that too, right?
Yes, but I want to give them a
plug, because I think that
there are a lot of good PR blog
gers
out there who are out there
long before I was from all over
the world.
I mean, Neville Hopson out of
Amsterdam, if you're not
reading his blog, it's fabulous
.
He's talking about--
Well, I read your blog, and I
expect you to point to him when
he has something interesting.
I do, I definitely do.
What about a link blog?
Do you ever think about doing
one of those?
I have thought about doing that
, because--
Because you ask what's next for
me, that's one of them.
That's another thing OPML is
good for.
Is that, you know, if you want
to do a more sort of like long
post, short post sort of thing,
and a lot easier, that's one of
the things I want to do.
I think that blogging has
gotten too in a rut.
I have a link blog now, kind of
, for delicious, which is
basically, yeah, it's my backup
brain.
I mean, if I see a laptop, I
think I want to buy, I'll throw
it there.
But actually, something I've
actually done is I'm using
delicious, the irony is, where
I sit,
is I now get pitched a lot.
You get pitched.
I get pitched.
Which is weird, because you're
a pitcher.
It's like, years ago there was
Bill and Ted's bogus journey,
it's a B movie.
And it was a scene where Bill
and Ted were sent to their own
personal hell.
Okay, and that's what I feel
like, because all these years
of pitching journalists
and spamming their own biases.
Now I'm getting spammed by
other PR professionals and the
tables have turned.
You're a filter.
Well, like, and some of it's
really good.
And I'm trying to be nice.
I try to respond to every pitch
and try to say thank you.
At least just say thank you.
But what I've done is, I say,
hey, let's make the pitching
process transparent.
Go put your link up in
delicious and tag it micro
persuasion.
And tell me one line why you
think I should link to this.
Have you asked people to do
that?
Yeah.
And what do they do?
Some have actually taken to it
and started to post things
there.
And I try to pull things from
there regularly that I think
are appropriate.
So it's a public place,
basically.
You could point to that from
your blog if you wanted to.
Yeah, I do.
So you'd have a sort of, or you
do.
And so there would be a place
that basically anybody could
post to.
That's transparent pitching.
Well, it's sort of like, there
's so many things like the track
back.
If you had, you know, that's
kind of like track back, except
in a sort of centralized place.
Well, it's an invitation saying
, you know, post something here.
I promise you I'll look at it.
And then if I, it sounds
interesting.
There's something I want to ask
.
Is there sort of like,
Is this the question you were
going to ask me at the
beginning?
No, and I was going to put it
out to all these guys.
Is that, is there like a pulse
to the New York bloggers
community?
Do you have meetups?
Do you have, is there anybody
who throws parties or anything
like that?
No.
Cause like in San Francisco,
there's a whole sort of circuit
.
There's no time for that.
There's no, you gotta catch a
train.
You gotta.
I'm not saying it's a good
thing, actually.
Cause I think it's very incest
uous.
And people are so concerned
about being friends with other
people that, you know,
they're not getting any truth
anymore because you gotta, you
know, be careful.
So is there anything like that?
I've been pushing for it.
I've been trying to, you know,
connect with different people.
You know, I reached out to
Steve.
That's why we're here this
morning, you know, let's get
together.
I got together with Jason and
some of his bloggers one night,
two weeks ago.
Six Apart was here.
They actually had a, you know,
drinks last week.
I was too sick to go.
They had a what week?
They sort of like, you know,
open, what is it, happy hour.
Six Apart was here.
Meina came into town and, you
know, Anil and Nate, they had
an open house basically for
bloggers.
And, but no, we really need
some sort of formal way because
.
Well, here's the thing, you
know, I think that New York is
very, as you know, Dave,
it's very different in the
valley.
I mean, it's, it's, it tends to
be.
It's not really a community, is
it?
It's so huge.
And here's how we see it like
with on the PR side.
When we go into a media tour,
we're a client out in
California.
Don't meet, the media world
will meet with the clients.
In New York, they really don't
want to.
Unless it's such a big name or
has such a value for them or
they really have the time to do
it.
It's a very different vibe.
That's changed because in the
80s, I did press tours that
came through New York, Boston,
Philadelphia, Washington and so
forth.
And yeah, I mean, they would
card me around all the
publications and yeah, they
would meet.
I didn't think there was a
whole lot of value.
It's hard.
We can get the meetings, but it
's a lot harder.
I think that's rashes.
Because now you can find out
what you need to know on the
web.
I'll go to your website.
I'll send you an email.
You send me a copy of the
software to find out why I'll
play with it.
It's different.
Yeah.
Well, I guess that's good.
Things have changed.
But one of the things I noticed
, I spent a bunch of time in
North Carolina and in Greens
boro,
they've got a blogging
community and it is very much
based on face-to-face.
And one of the big differences,
and I said this when I was
meeting with people there,
it occurred to me that there
may be more bloggers in New
York,
but a blogger in Greensboro
more likely knows another blog
ger than a blogger in New York
does.
You may know them not geograph
ically, but you've met and your
friends, you grew up with them
basically.
I haven't met many New York
bloggers.
Have you?
Yeah, I've met a bunch actually
.
At different events, the blog
ger dinner where I met you.
That's right.
I started meeting people.
The thing is, blogging is a
solitary occupation.
We sit there and we're writers.
You sit there and you have to
spend the time researching.
Dave, you're very prolific, but
to me, it's the time I spend
alone.
Usually late at night, after
the kids are in bed, writing.
I love this, seeing you meeting
other people and discussing
stuff.
I think it's exciting.
Yeah, I usually don't want
anything to do with meeting
people.
This is actually the first time
I've ever met a blogger.
He's constantly trying to drag
me along.
So what do you think?
Is it good to meet other blog
gers?
Did you hate every second of it
?
It's sort of neat to see the
person behind the words, which
is sort of neat.
I don't know.
Not every week.
The people who really are
social butterflies and they
just want to meet everybody.
I just want to blog.
I want to spend my time on that
.
If you have something
interesting, email me.
We'll go from there.
The community is online.
It's not.
Next week, I'm coming back to
New York to do a debate at Re
uters.
They're inviting all these
press people in.
It's so fascinating.
This is another reason we get
together is to help assuage the
fears of the print journalists.
All the questions they ask are
so revealing.
They want us to say, "No, you
can't trust bloggers."
They'll always be a reason for
you to exist.
Bloggers have access to Brian.
Bloggers have confidence to
entrust whatever.
There will be, I think, a lot
of press people.
I know people are flying in for
that thing.
It should be interesting.
I used to do scripting news din
ners in New York.
I've probably done maybe five
of them over the years.
We almost got one together for
this one.
I don't know who would show up
for it now.
Actually, I actually think you
could have the opposite problem
.
So many people show up.
How do you manage that?
I don't have a problem with
that.
Katz's Deli is very good for
that.
Katz has this huge dining room.
At worst, we'd fill up a tiny
corner of that dining room.
That's not the problem.
I have no idea who would show
up anymore.
I try to be there when I can.
No, I'm sure you would.
Maybe next time.
The one I liked the best that I
've ever done
was the brunch we did in
Alexandria.
We had our own private room
and 10 people at the really
long table
and the door closed.
We could hear everything.
Whereas contrast that to one
that I did in Amsterdam
where we were 10 people sitting
at one long table
and I couldn't hear what the
guy sitting next to me was
saying.
What's the point?
I mean, okay.
It was like I moved my mouth.
What did he say?
I actually have to go run.
We've got 44 minutes.
Don't run yet.
Let me wrap this up.
Before you go, we've got to
talk Dave into gnomedex.
Yes, we've got to go.
Before you leave, I just want
to get a chance to wrap up.
So don't just walk out and make
me wrap up by myself.
I would love to go to gnomedex,
but Chris has got to invite me
to speak.
This is one of the things that
...
Or let's do an open session
that's an unconference blogger
style thing.
I've written about this. Two
tier conferences.
I don't like those.
I would love to go to gnomedex.
But I would also like to get
invited.
I thought seriously about going
, but I haven't gotten invited
to it.
And I see him inviting all
kinds of other people.
You paid? Maybe I should just
pay.
Maybe I should just fuck the
hell with getting invited.
Mark Cantor, filter out.
I want to meet filter out.
You think Mark Cantor is like
...
He's a nut. I knew him in the
SPA years ago.
He's doing crazy stuff.
So you would fly across country
to see Mark Cantor.
Well, the group, the combined
group.
Steve's there.
Scobal.
Yeah, Scobal's okay.
What do you think about the
podcast hotel?
Have you heard about that one?
No.
I swear they got this one from
me.
I did this in a podcast.
I explained this idea. I've had
it for years.
The idea is that we all go
check and do a hotel somewhere.
I mean, like 20 or 30 people.
And we stay there for a week
and we just interview each
other.
We go places and there's no
sessions.
Absolutely no structure to it
whatsoever.
And who's doing it?
Alex Williams is doing it in
Portland, Oregon sometime this
summer.
I don't know if he thought of
it on his own. That's great.
You know, there's another thing
I want to fix about this
business is that
give people credit for their
ideas.
Come on. What's the problem?
I know you feel the same way,
right?
Absolutely.
You've been abused.
Well, I don't like using that
word.
But I like pleading with people
better than complaining.
Anyway, okay, thanks everybody.
We were about to be evacuated.
This has been one of the most
interesting podcasts ever.
And I'd like to thank you all
guys for coming by and see you
all real soon.
Thanks, Dave.
This is a perfect way to end
this.
Are we going to kick it out?
Hopefully we're alive still.
Okay, that's it.